The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

Public Transport

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve the national public transport network? OQ60832

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Llyr Gruffydd. Llywydd, significant investment, policy reform and passing radical new legislation will help to improve the network. Long-term sustainability depends upon growing passenger numbers to pre-pandemic levels and beyond.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. As buses account for some three quarters of all use of public transport in Wales, it's sad to see that around 10 per cent of bus routes in Wales have been reduced or entirely cancelled during last summer because of the funding pressures, and that's according to the Confederation of Passenger Transport. They also estimate that between 15 per cent and 25 per cent of all remaining routes will be at risk of either being cut or facing significant changes over the coming 12 months. Now, one understands the tension, and it's been raised here in this Chamber before, between funding buses and funding railways, and we're aware of the £235 million of additional funding that's been provided to Transport for Wales for railways. But bearing in mind, as I was saying, that three quarters of all public transport journeys in Wales are undertaken on a bus, do you believe that your Government's got the funding balance between funding trains and funding buses right?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, this is an importantquestion, Llywydd. As people will be aware, the problem is that it is nearly impossible to withdraw funding from rail because there are always costs there. So, we fund the rail services because we want to increase the possibilities for people to travel from north to south Wales, and things have improved over recent months. We are funding buses here in Wales. We have given more money from the public purse to keep buses going in Wales than ever before. The problem is the number of people who travel on rail services is back to pre-pandemic levels. Well, that's not true at all of bus services. Now, we are investing a lot of money in north Wales bus services, to provide more services, and to help people who travel to have affordable services, but the greatest challenge in the area of bus services is to increase the number of people using bus services. That will provide more funding for the people running bus services, and then, in that way, we can continue to provide services for those who rely on bus services. And we know, as Llyr Gruffydd said, that more people use buses in Wales than who use trains.

Sam Rowlands AS: First Minister, I'll focus on rail just for a moment—an issue affecting, of course, my residents in north Wales. Recent figures unveiled by S4C's Y Byd ar Bedwar programme showed that the Welsh Labour Government's rail provider, Transport for Wales, had had over a million minutes of delays last year alone. In addition, more than 83,000 formal complaints about the service have been made since 2020 by unhappy customers up and down Wales. Is this something you're comfortable with?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let's unpack that figure just for a moment, because just on a half of that million minutes are caused by Network Rail, not by Transport for Wales at all. They are caused by Network Rail cancelling services, carrying out work at the last minute. Yesterday, Network Rail announced that it will close the line between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, and that it will stay closed until 25 March. That will affect Sam Rowlands's constituents, because trains to Aberystwyth, to Pwllheli, to Holyhead will all be affected. And no doubt, some journalist somewhere will add up the minutes and say, 'Isn't that dreadful?', as though that was Transport for Wales's responsibility. But not a single one of those minutes will be; it will be the actions of the non-devolved Network Rail. It is why the Office of Rail and Road are investigating poor Network Rail performance here in Wales. So, when you get under the bonnet of those figures, far from as the Member was attempting to say that this is all some failure of the transport service here in Wales, it turns out that half of it—and that's a minimum, I would say—half of it is the effect of decisions made by the non-devolved Network Rail service.

Alun Davies AC: First Minister, last month I celebrated my sixtieth birthday, you'll be pleased to hear. So, I am now the proud owner of a bus pass, which I've been enjoying using every time I can find a bus, and it's been great to be able to use public transport in the way that the card was designed to enable us all to do, those of us who have survived 60 years on the planet. But I was thinking, First Minister—. I was having this conversation with my daughter in her twenties and my teenage son, and wouldn't it be great if we could find a way of enabling young people to use a bus pass as well, to enable young people to pick up that habit of using public transport, to use a bus and to use the trains, wherever appropriate, so that we can ensure that young people in this country today have the same opportunity to catch buses and to enjoy using public transport?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Alun Davies for that. Some of us think fondly of our sixtieth birthdays—[Laughter.]—and the opportunities that we've had for longer than he has to use the bus pass. Look, the bus pass was a hallmark decision of the Assembly, as it then was, in its very first term, and it has made an enormous difference in the lives of older and disabled people in Wales. I very well remember reading the letters that came in to the office of the then First Minister from people who would explain how now they were able to do all sorts of things that, up until then, had simply been beyond their means to do so. And they were simple things, Llywydd, but what a difference they made in the lives of those people: a chance to go an visit your sister who lived just further down the valley, a chance to go and see something that mattered to you but you hadn't been able to be there for many years. So, the bus pass for people aged 60 and over and for disabled people has been a fundamental part of what devolution has achieved here in Wales. But it would be great, as Alun Davies says, to be able to invest more in creating the public transport users of the future, and we do that already. We already provide reduced price travel for young people on buses, and particularly new services for very young people on trains. Had the settlement for the Welsh Government stayed in line with the growth in the economy as a whole, we would have money available to us to do exactly that and to make those investment decisions in the future. And I look forward to a period in the next five years of devolution when those opportunities will come our way again.

Steel Production

Adam Price AC: 2. Will the First Minister outline any potential plans the Welsh Government has to retain domestic steel production? OQ60828

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Adam Price for that. Domestic steel production is of strategic importance to Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. Expert plans, developed and presented by the steel trades unions, provide a credible and immediate plan to retain steel production in Wales.

Adam Price AC: We're coming close to the end of the 45-day period of formal consultation, aren't we, First Minister. Now, if Tata reject the unions' plans and continue with their proposals to close down both blast furnaces over the next few months, we know the UK Government will do nothing in response to save steel production. The question is what can we do here in Wales. Could the First Minister say if there's been consideration or discussion by officials or Ministers on the use of the Welsh Government's powers to bring forward emergency legislation to effectively place a preservation order, if you like, through compulsory purchase of the blast furnaces themselves, so to preserve their physical integrity and prevent their demolition or their degradation, and to maintain them, so that, over the next few months, while we wait, hopefully, for a change in industrial policy in the UK Government, they can then provide the basis for a sustainable future for steel production in Wales and, indeed, for the rest of the UK?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Adam Price for that, Llywydd. I read his contribution to the debate that resulted in a unanimous resolution passed here on the floor of the Senedd. I know that his contribution is meant seriously as a positive contribution to the debate, but can I just say to him that I think this is the wrong moment to be discussing that? I do not want us to say anything that undermines the case the trade unions are making, not for some fallback plan, not for something if things don't go the way the trade unions would like to see it. I want us to see this Government put all our energy and our commitment behind the plan that the trade unions have developed—a credible plan, to quote Tata Steel. At this moment, I think if we start talking about what do we do if a plan fails, actually we're going to drain some energy and some potential out of the efforts that our trade union colleagues—very much with the support of this Government and with the support across the Chamber—are making today in their discussions with the company. I want us to be focused on that. That was the focus of the discussion that Eluned Morgan held when she was in Mumbai with the company. The economy Minister will be meeting the chief executive of Tata Steel again tomorrow here in Wales. We will be focused, Llywydd, not on what happens if the plan fails, but in doing everything that we can to make that plan succeed. And with the prospect of a Labour Government potentially on the horizon, with an entirely new level of ambition and support for that industry, I think that plan has a real chance of succeeding. Supporting that plan is what we are doing today and will go on doing over the weeks to come.

Tom Giffard AS: It's interesting to hear to First Minister and in particular Plaid Cymru say that the UK Government has done nothing in Port Talbot, whereas, in fact, what the UK Government has done is secure the future of the steel industry in south Wales with a £500 million support package to help Tata as it transitions to a greener future, but also securing that £100 million transition fund to help workers who will be affected in Port Talbot by the changes. To date, the Welsh Government hasn't put a single penny into either pot. It hasn't put a penny to support any worker in Port Talbot at all. It is a disgrace. Why hasn't the Welsh Government done that, and will they do that now?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member is mistaken almost from start to finish in what he said. I have never said that the UK Government had done nothing. I was very glad to have a conversation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Jeremy Hunt, in the lead-up to the announcement, and I welcomed the announcement at the time. So, we've never not recognised the fact that £500 million is a major commitment to the future of the steel industry. Unfortunately, it is not sufficient to secure a just transition to that future. That's where our discussions have been, on creating a pathway to that electric arc future that offers people who work in that industry today a hope that their futures will be secured in that process. That will need a Labour Government to do that. What we face in the current Government is a Prime Minister who won't take a phone call on the day when 3,000 jobs are lost, and a Secretary of State who has never once visited Port Talbot. Can you imagine that? A Secretary of State responsible for the future of the UK steel industry who has not once in all those months been prepared to come to Wales to discuss the future of the plant. And, Llywydd, just to be clear, the Member is completely wrong about Welsh Government investment in that industry. We have, over a decade—. I don't think there's barely a year in the last 10 years when the Welsh Government hasn't invested alongside Tata in the skills development of that workforce, in the research and development aspect of Tata steel, and in environmental improvements in the plant in Port Talbot. Year in, year out, we have been there, and that isn't going to change.

Mike Hedges AC: As an ex-steelworker, possibly the only one in the Senedd, I am a strong supporter of the continuation of steel making and iron making in Wales. Electric arc furnaces have the following weaknesses: firstly, they're dependent on sufficient quality recyclable steel; secondly, they're dependent upon low electricity prices; and limited types of steel are able to be produced. Will the First Minister make further representations to both Tata and the Westminster Government regarding the continuity of iron and steel making in Port Talbot, because that's the only way it's going to have a long-term future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Mike Hedges is absolutely right: the electric arc possibilities for Port Talbot are real and important, but they're not sufficient. That is why keeping that second blast furnace going during the coming years is so important, not just to the workers, not just to the town, but to the whole of the United Kingdom. Because, if we don't do that, the whole of the United Kingdom will lose the opportunity for virgin steel making, exposing us in a way you absolutely would have thought that the UK Government would have learned its lesson on this. Look at the impact of the war in Ukraine on supply chains, on things that people thought that they could rely on and now find that they can't at all. To put ourselves knowingly and deliberately in that same position in relation to something as basic as steel making, something that you need for electric vehicles, that you need for floating offshore wind, that a mature economy simply cannot do without—. That's why it's important to keep that second blast furnace going and, in the meantime, technologies will go on maturing. Things that electric arc furnaces cannot do today may be possible and there may be other ways of producing those steel products in the future. What we cannot afford—the United Kingdom cannot afford—is an abrupt end to steel making of that sort today and then a gap opening up before we're able to replace that capacity in the future.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, I challenged you on various comments and evidence that had been made to the COVID inquiry. You wouldn't answer those questions, and I accept the point that you made, that you had due respect and regard for the COVID inquiry. But here we are on the floor of the Welsh Parliament. Over the weekend, I tuned into a radio programme on Times Radio. You were quite happy to wax lyrical on there about the COVID inquiry and your relationship with the UK Government. Why is there a difference in your ability to speak about the COVID response of the Welsh Government to the media, but you're not prepared to speak on the floor of the Welsh Parliament when you're challenged on the evidence that's in the public domain?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, my answers to the journalist who interviewed me were very carefully crafted to make sure that I said only things that I have said time and time again already here on the floor of the Senedd and elsewhere. I said nothing in that interview that is not already and many, many times over in the public domain. There is a world of difference in just repeating what has already been said and being asked to pre-empt an examination that I will undergo tomorrow, under oath, in front of a statutory inquiry and a judge of the Court of Appeal. Those things are simply not comparable.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: No-one's asking you to pre-empt the questions, when the line of questioning is put to you, First Minister, and the line of questioning that the journalist put was very broad; it was about the relationship that you as a Welsh Government had with the UK Government. And you were quite willing to engage in that discussion. What I've heard over the last week from the COVID inquiry, which is in the public domain, is how many Welsh Government Ministers, as we heard yesterday, use Senedd-provided devices in their communications. Now, what I'd like to try and understand—. So, it's not pre-empting responses that you might give tomorrow, but it's the protocol that the Welsh Government operates under with retention of information, given that Ministers, such as the economy Minister, highlighted how it was embarrassing that data was lost because the Senedd IT department lost that data when they were upgrading his phone—and you've alluded to the fact that you've used your Senedd device to have exchanges on WhatsApp—how the protocols that the Welsh Government work to in retention of information reaches into devices that are provided by the Senedd. Surely there’s a discrepancy there, and, if it doesn’t get captured by the protocols that the Welsh Government undertakes, how on earth can people have confidence that important information is contained and held ready for descriptions and evidence in the COVID inquiry or other inquiries that might require that information?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, protocols do exist for the way in which Ministers use electronic devices, whether those are Welsh Government devices or the devices that every one of us is supplied with as a result of our membership of the Senedd. Those protocols are to be found amongst the more than 35,000 documents that the Welsh Government has disclosed to the inquiry, and the inquiry will itself disclose those documents that it believes to be relevant into the public domain.
I’m very reluctant to get drawn into what the inquiry has discussed, Llywydd, for all the reasons I described last week. I think I would be on safe enough ground to say this—that this issue of how electronic communications are used has been a theme of the inquiry in every place it has visited. It was exhaustively rehearsed with UK Ministers, it was a focus of the inquiry in Scotland, and it has been rehearsed in Wales. I’ve no doubt that the inquiry itself will be thinking about recommendations that it may make for the future if there are any new protocols that need to be developed.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: We were constantly told that the Welsh Government was led by the science. As opposition Members, we are being led by the evidence when it comes to trying to understand how Welsh Government, how special advisers, how the civil servants and other decision makers arrived at the decisions that impacted everyone's lives in this country, and key decisions that either led to life-and-death situations for many people—that was the severity and the magnitude of the decisions that were being taken. And I know, First Minister, that you felt that burden, just like every other decision maker felt it as well. So, I'm not trying to diminish the level of expectation that was on your shoulders, and indeed other decision makers across the United Kingdom. But it is incumbent on us to try and understand how those decisions were arrived at and how they were enacted.
Last week, your senior special adviser, in cross-examination by the chair of the inquiry herself, Baroness Hallett, said that she misused her personal phone for communications within Government. Those were her words; she admitted that. So, under the civil service code that governs the relationship between senior civil servants and also special advisers, given that admission, what action are you taking as First Minister to bring the disciplinary process to bear as it would be used on any minor or junior official if such a disclosure had come about? Or are you prepared not to act and allow such a transgression to get away with it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me respond first of all to the point that the leader of the opposition made. The pandemic touched the lives of everyone who lived in Wales, and many families lost loved ones, and the inquiry is there to shine a spotlight onto the way in which decisions here were made here in Wales. I'm very glad indeed that it spent the time it has here in Wales and it has been able to ask the questions that it has asked. That will not be the sum total of the evidence, as the leader of the opposition has said, that is available to people in Wales. As well as all the documents that have been submitted to the inquiry, the more than 100 statements that have been submitted to it in response to rule 9 requests, there will be all that information that already lies there on the record: more than 250 press conferences in which Ministers appeared and answered questions from journalists of whatever description—we never once denied access to a press conference to any journalist who asked to attend—the tens and tens of statements, debates, questions that have been answered on the floor of this Senedd; the sessions that he and his predecessor as leader of the opposition—. And I was always very grateful to you both for coming every week to be able to hear directly from the chief medical officer, the chief scientific officer, the chief executive of the NHS here in Wales, so that you would have access to the best information that was available to us as a Welsh Government. The record is immense of the evidence that is available, and I want to make sure that anyone who has questions to ask about what happened in those very difficult days has the ability to interrogate that record.
On the Member's final point, Llywydd, I am not responsible for the civil service code; I am responsible for the ministerial code. Special advisers are civil servants, and it is the Permanent Secretary's responsibility to exercise authority in relation to those matters, not mine.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And before I move on, just for the record, I am responsible for the Senedd Commission staff, and I'm sure the leader of the opposition did not seek to imply any criticism of the ICT Senedd staff, in his questioning of the First Minister, on any data that was lost by the ICT department. Software updates are very complex and have consequences on all our devices, and it was most definitely not as a result of the Senedd ICT department that the data was lost. So, any criticism of the staff of that department, I'm sure you did not imply that.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The leader of Plaid Cymru now, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Many people were incredulous that the First Minister would refuse to answer questions here in the Senedd last week on the COVID pandemic, whilst being willing to answer questions in that Times Radio interview just a few days later. The First Minister has told us today that, in that interview, he was able to give very carefully crafted answers to the journalist. I'm sure he's not suggesting that there had been an agreement in advance what questions exactly he would be asked by the journalist. As a former broadcast journalist myself, I'm sure that is not how it would happen. And I know that he is perfectly able to carefully craft answers here in the Parliament too. But will the First Minister admit now that his failure to answer those questions last week, whilst being willing to give the radio interview, will be seen as an attempt to avoid parliamentary scrutiny?

Mark Drakeford AC: No, Llywydd, I entirely reject that. It's a nonsensical accusation, and the leader of Plaid Cymru ought to know better than to make it. Because I answer questions on the floor of this Senedd every week. I will be here next week, as the Llywydd said, answering questions after I have given my evidence. I will be answering questions next week in front of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister. I will answer questions at the right moment. When I said here last week, and, as I said today, when I answer questions in a journalist's interview—. And, of course, on that, at least, the leader of Plaid Cymru was right: I had no idea what questions I would be asked. But, when I was asked a question that might have a bearing on my evidence in front of the inquiry, I was scrupulous to make sure that I said nothing that was not already available on the public record. And that's the respect that I will show to the inquiry.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And, of course, the First Minister is perfectly able to craft those answers in exactly the same way here in the Senedd, and to avoid what he might see as pitfalls of prejudicing his evidence to the COVID inquiry tomorrow. I repeat what I said last week: it is our job to scrutinise, the First Minister's job to open himself up to scrutiny—as, of course, he does on many occasions—but we get to choose when we ask the questions that we want to ask. Now, I sincerely hope that the next First Minister will open himself to scrutiny too. The front-runner for that job, the health Minister during the pandemic, of course, gave evidence to the inquiry yesterday. Let's look at what we learnt from that session: inadequate preparation for the wrong pandemic; WhatsApp messages lost; personal protective equipmentnot fit for purpose; lockdown modelling carried out too late; the wrong decision on the six nations rugby match. All of these admissions give rise to more questions than answers, but there's barely any time to ask them, of course. There were some technical difficulties yesterday, but the chair of the inquiry said that Vaughan Gething's evidence still had to be wrapped up the same day—just a practical example of why a Wales-specific COVID inquiry is needed, but, of course, the First Minister refused to give us that inquiry. So, will he tell us here in the Senedd today which aspect of Vaughan Gething's evidence does he find most troubling?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course I won't, Llywydd, because the Member's question is a vivid illustration of why that sort of question is not properly put to me before I answer questions in front of the inquiry. He says to me, 'Of course I could craft a careful answer to his question', and had he asked me a question that did not immediately draw me into the evidence that is being provided—evidence on oath, evidence to a statutory inquiry—. It's absolutely wrong, Llywydd, and that question was a most vivid illustration of just how wrong you can be in trying to replay on the floor of the Senedd an inquiry that has been set up specifically in order to be able to examine, in this case, the actions of the Welsh Government. He's wrong to ask me and I will not be drawn into that conversation.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Obviously, it's a matter of regret that the First Minister can't differentiate between parliamentary scrutiny and the questions that he will rightly be asked by the COVID inquiry itself. The Times Radio interview that I referred to earlier has been revealing in contexts other than just COVID. Speaking of the UK Labour leader, Keir Starmer, the First Minister said, 'If I ever need to speak to him, I send a text and within an hour we're on the phone, speaking.' So, on Sunday, when the would-be Labour Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, refused to rule out spending cuts in some areas, did the First Minister text Keir Starmer then to spell out how disastrous that would be for Wales? If so, how quickly did he respond and what did he say?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the reason that I can be confident that if I ask for a conversation with Keir Starmer I will get it is because I would never fritter away those opportunities by doing the sort of thing that the leader of Plaid Cymru has just suggested. I know that if I want to have a proper conversation about matters that are of significance to Wales, then I must use those opportunities for those purposes. His question, designed to suggest that, somehow, a call from me on that matter would be consequential, is so removed from the realities of how parties that have to be in government, rather than in the business of pressure group and—well, I'll stop there. [Interruption.] Well, parties that operate on the basis of being pressure groups, rather than being serious parties of government. I'm afraid his question simply exposes the gulf that still exists.

Rural Development

Cefin Campbell AS: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting rural development in Mid and West Wales? OQ60821

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Cefin Campbell for that question, Llywydd. All of the funding available through the rural development programme for Wales 2014-20 from the European Union, namely £846 million, was successfully invested in Wales. That achievement shows our commitment to supporting rural development.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you, First Minister. You may recall that the first question I asked you in this Chamber, back in 2021, was whether there was a need to create a rural regeneration strategy and also a strategy to tackle the unique problems facing rural Wales. Essentially, the response I received was, 'No', because, according to you, there are no economic and social issues that are uniquely rural, and they are no different to the problems facing urban areas.
Now, since then, evidence from the Bevan Foundation shows that it's rural communities that have been hit worst during the cost-of-living crisis. Off-grid households face fuel poverty. Public transport in rural areas is shrinking. There are ongoing problems in terms of the shortage of childcare, broadband not being appropriate, a lack of quality jobs, and so on and so forth. Given that you, as a Government, have been refusing to tackle this, I've done some work of my own on rural poverty, and I will be launching a draft strategy the week after next. So, can I ask you once again, First Minister, possibly for the last time: do you agree with me that it is now time for us to develop a regeneration strategy for rural Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Cefin Campbell. I do rememberthe original question after the election in 2021. Many of the points made by the Member are important and relevant. Of course, some issues in rural areas are different to those facing people who live in Riverside in the west of Cardiff. I could make a number of points about a scheme to respond to the problems of the people who live on an estate in Ely, for example, which are very different to those of people who live in rural areas, but the point is whether there are strategic elements that are different. Of course, the points that are relevant to rural Wales are different, but is the strategy different? To me, the important thing is to have a strategy for the economy of Wales as a whole. That will raise people living in rural areas and those living in cities and those living in the Valleys as well. And I would much prefer to try to think about Wales as a whole in a strategic way and, at the same time, to create solutions that respond to those things that are different in a number of different contexts in Wales.

James Evans AS: First Minister, I always think that rural development starts with rural growth, and my colleague Sam Kurtz and the cross-party group on rural growth generated their report last week on growth in the rural economy, which he's showing a lovely prop for there. It had a number of recommendations, and one was establishing a development board in rural Wales to help facilitate rural growth, set a clear strategy for rural Wales and set infrastructure targets on how we can improve rural Wales. A lot of constituents I speak to about when we had the old rural development board say that it was very good and that a lot of the concerns that businesses had were listened to and actioned upon. So, one of the key recommendations in the report was re-establishing that, so I'm just interested, First Minister, as perhaps one of your parting gambits as the First Minister of Wales, whether this is something that you would like to initiate from the Welsh Government.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'd like to begin by thanking the cross-party group, and Sam Kurtz in leading it, for the report. I've had a chance to read it. It's a good read and it will be very important material for an incoming First Minister and the team of Ministers that he will lead. As in any report, there were parts of it that I agreed with and there were parts of it that I didn't agree with. It's going to be a report that deserves that sort of debate and consideration. I thought it had very important things to say, for example, on skills development in the rural economy. I thought it had some interesting things to say on joint forums, in which we can come together to make sure that the variety of perspectives on how to do better in the future can be brought together. I didn't agree with some of the things that it said about planning rules. I didn't agree with some of the things that it said about rural tourism, although I agreed with other things that it said on that matter.
What I'm probably myself not attracted to, Llywydd—but it won't be for me—is the idea of going back to something that was there before. Just as James Evans has met people who tell him how good it was in the old days of the rural development board, I can remember, here on the floor of the Assembly, people being perfectly critical of that board at the time when it was in operation. So, I don't think it's the best course of action to think that you can recreate, in today's conditions, something that was relevant in its time. The idea of a forum that can bring people together is different and I think that's where the debate on the report would be most fruitfully held.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm often frustrated, as a Llywydd, in not being able to respond on a particular policy point that's being discussed on the floor of the Senedd. As somebody who used to work for the development board for rural Wales in the 1990s, I'm particularly frustrated at this point, but we'll leave it there, to be continued.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 4, John Griffiths.

Climate Change in Newport East

John Griffiths AC: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle climate change in Newport East? OQ60848

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank John Griffiths, Llywydd? Tackling climate change has to be a collective effort. I commend Newport City Council for its joint work with the Welsh Government to support decarbonisation, leading by example to provide zero-emission vehicles and electric vehicle charging infrastructure in the Member's constituency.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you very much for that answer, First Minister. We know that Wales is a world leader in municipal recycling rates, and I'm very pleased that you've recognised the role of Newport City Council, and I think the same is true of Monmouthshire County Council in my area, in terms of the work that they've carried out and the contribution that they have made.
Under devolution, First Minister, we've seen municipal recycling rates increase from under 5 per cent to now almost 66 per cent, to place Wales as an absolute world leader. That is such a huge success story for the Assembly, now Senedd, that I think it should be widely recognised in this Chamber and beyond, First Minister. But, as ever, the question is how we build on that success. I know that Welsh Government has invested, I think, around £1 billion in municipal recycling since the advent of devolution, but could you tell us today, First Minister, how we will build on that, how Welsh Government will build on that success to drive up recycling rates even further, working with our key partners and stakeholders?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths for that. He's right to celebrate the achievements of Welsh local authorities. Five local authorities in Wales already meet or exceed the new statutory target of a minimum of 70 per cent being recycled. That includes Monmouthshire, and I'm sure that that is the result of the efforts of the current administration, but it will, undoubtedly, draw on a longer history of successful work in that field. Llywydd, let me give you just one other, I think, remarkable figure of Welsh success in this area. In 2012-13, 42 per cent of waste in Wales was disposed of via landfill—42 per cent. That figure in 2022-23, 10 years later, was 1.6 per cent. That is utterly remarkable, isn't it, the way in which not only have we succeeded in driving up recycling rates, but we have avoided the worst consequences of waste going to landfill.
Now, John Griffiths asks how will we do more, Llywydd. In April of this year, we will take a very important step forward. I commend the work of the Minister for Climate Change in this area. I noticed, last week on the floor of the Senedd, Conservative Members were asking us to slow down what we are intending to do, but we won't be doing that, because, just as Welsh citizens have made enormous efforts, so now we need Welsh businesses to play their part in that recycling effort as well. The workplace recycling regulations will require all business, public and third sector workplaces to separate key recyclable materials, just in the way that almost everybody in this Chamber probably does every week in their own households. That will increase recycling, it will reduce even further the amount of waste sent for incineration and to landfill. It will improve the quality and quantity of recyclable materials as part of that circular economy we're trying to achieve here in Wales. In doing that, we will find a way, even more swiftly, to the future that we want to create here in Wales.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, yesterday, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change published a written statement about rural transport. In it, he said that
'the Welsh Government is committed to seepublictransport, walking and cycling trips account for 45% of journeys by 2040'
to help meet carbon emission targets. Now, for many across Wales, First Minister, this is simply not doable with an unreliable public transport network. Just look at the latest shocking statistics about Labour-owned Transport for Wales. TfW racked up more than 1 million minutes-worth of delays in 2023, and that's the worst record to date—[Interruption.]

Mark Drakeford AC: She only just arrived.

Natasha Asghar AS: This is despite the Welsh Government pumping a staggering £1 billion of taxpayers'cash into the organisation. So, First Minister, I do have to ask: how proud are you of Transport for Wales and how much it's been performing under your watch, and do you agree that it's going to be incredibly difficult to get people to use public transport when this is the reality on the ground?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there's an awful warning in the Member's question about reading out a question that somebody's written for you in advance, and, as far as I can tell, asking it in the wrong question as well, because question 1 was the question that dealt with public transport here. And I dealt then with the spurious point about the 1 million minutes that the Member then just repeated in her question.
This Government continues to be completely ambitious, Llywydd, for the way in which, not just in recycling, not just in the way in which buildings will have to change, we will all have to be prepared to change the way in which we travel if we are going to make the contribution that Wales needs to make to meet our climate change targets. There’s no part of our lives that will be left untouched by the collective effort that has to be made if we are to hand on the planet to those who come after us in a fit state for their futures. That’s why we do not stand back from our ambitions for active travel; that’s why we don’t stand back from our ambitions to make sure that people are able to walk, to cycle, to use public transport. The UK Government may today turn its back even further on its green credentials by embarking on a new generation of gas-fired power stations with no plans—no plans at all—for carbon capture in them; this Government has always taken our responsibilities seriously.

Improving Education

Laura Anne Jones AC: 5. What progress has the Welsh Government made towards improving education over the last six years? OQ60825

Mark Drakeford AC: In the last six years we have fundamentally reformed services for children with additional learning needs, developed and implemented a new Curriculum for Wales, and created a new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research. These, and other developments, will go on improving education in Wales for many years to come.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, since you entered office, Welsh education can be summed up with one word: failure. Since you became First Minister, your Government has cut education budgets to the bone year on year in cash terms—£56 million was the most recent one. The Government has failed to address the teacher recruitment and retention crisis in Wales—and it is a crisis, particularly this Government failing to attract teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh in core subjects. There has been a stark rise in bad behaviour and violence—5,000 incidents in the past five years. I visited a primary school yesterday that was shocking. I did not expect them to come to me with a very real problem with violence and bad behaviour in their school.
Absenteeism is still rising, school transport is still not adequate, education standards are at an all-time low, Wales is falling at the bottom of the PISA rankings, far behind its UK counterparts—I could go on and on, First Minister. Quite simply, your Government has failed a generation of learners throughout Wales, particularly those with additional learning needs, the result being me witnessing teachers in tears as I travel around Wales to visit schools. First Minister, I simply want to know this: why have you not prioritised education? Why have you not prioritised every child in this country getting the very best education they deserve? Instead, you are prioritising more money for more politicians over teachers and support for our schools.

Mark Drakeford AC: In the great Conservative tradition here, the Member has not a good word to say for any staff member or any child here in Wales. She asked me about the last six years. Let me give her just six good examples of how this Government goes on investing in education.
The first is the childcare offer, the astonishing success of the Flying Start investment that we've made as part of our co-operation agreement, with over 120 per cent achieved in phase 1, and 9,500 extra children to become involved in that very early years education through phase 2. What a contrast to the scheme in England, which is falling apart in front of people's eyes as the Government fails to produce those places. Here in Wales, there are 9,500 places—not a plan, but actually happening in Wales.
Let me give her the second reason that she can be a bit more cheerful than she managed earlier on: universal free school meals for our children—opposed, of course, by her party. Some 150,000 extra pupils are benefiting from that policy, with 17 million additional free meals provided to children in our schools.
She tried to run down Welsh-medium education amongst her assault on education. Welsh-medium education is the great success story of the last 25 years, and this Government has been on that journey every step of the way. And now we have our late immersion service, another outstanding example, with interest in it from around the world, of how you can help young people later on in their education career attain an ability in the Welsh language so that they can complete their education in that way.
There's the Seren programme; 53 per cent of all young people who take part in it go on to Russell Group universities. We have top-performing A-level students who outperform their counterparts in England year after year. And that growing number of young people from Wales will go on to study at higher education, with the fastest growth of all coming from those young people who live in disadvantaged communities. That's the record of education in Wales, that's the achievement of our young people, that's why the staff in our schools are so valued and deserve to be appreciated.
Llywydd, maybe I'll end with this point: I see in the latest opinion poll that, of 18 to 24-year-olds in Wales, 93 per cent intend to vote for parties other than the Conservative Party. That suggests to me that something is going right in our education service.

Sarah Murphy AS: To illustrate all the points that you've made, First Minister, last week, Huw Irranca-Davies, MS for Ogmore, and I visited Sony, based in Bridgend, and we got to sit in on one of their educational sustainability workshops with Porthcawl Comprehensive School. Honestly, we were blown away by how engaged, innovative and articulate they were. They were dying to stand up and explain to us their scientific solutions for tackling climate change. Much of it was what you've always taught us—the wind, water, waves. But not only that; many of them said that they wanted to study to be engineers and wanted to know more about Sony's apprenticeships and graduate programmes. So, First Minister, how can we continue, for the next six years, 10 years, to foster this passion, enjoyment, purpose and curiosity that students have—now and through lifelong learning? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sarah Murphy. What a different contribution. What it is to celebrate the young people we have here in Wales, with all their energy, their ambition, their wish to make a contribution to the future of our nation. I thank her for drawing attention to the importance of engineering studies in the lives of those young people. Let me just commend the work that Sarah herself and other colleagues in this Chamber have done, particularly to support women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects here in Wales. If we are going to capture that enthusiasm, that commitment of our young people, it has to be all of our young people. That half of the population who will be our future need to know that the STEM subjects and the careers that flow from them are equally available to them and that there are amazing role models for them here in Wales that they can look to, to help shape their own futures.

Transitional Support for Vulnerable Young People

Jane Dodds AS: 6. What measures has the Welsh Government taken to improve transitional support services for vulnerable young people? OQ60840

Mark Drakeford AC: Legislation in this Senedd term will extend entitlement to a personal adviser to every care-experienced young person until they are 25 years old. Thefirst ever national standards for childcare social work practice will include specific standards for transition, which advisers can help secure.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that response.

Jane Dodds AS: It's great to hear what progress has been made. There are many areas that we could look at in terms of transitional services for a child moving to adulthood: mental health, children with disabilities moving into the adult world of being disabled. We have anorexia and eating disorder services as well, where we know there are difficulties moving from being a child to being an adult. But I just want to focus on one specific area, which is homelessness. You touched there on care-experienced young people. There is a concern that the current proposals from the Welsh Government in the White Paper around housing and homelessness actually require a care-experienced young person to identify themselves as care experienced before they would be entitled to housing. I guess the issue, really, is that if there's been good multi-agency working, there should be no burden for that young person to have to identify themselves. So, I just wonder if we could relook at the corporate parenting charter to make sure that there's clarity there that a care-experienced person therefore does not have to identify themselves in order to be entitled to housing. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to Jane Dodds for those supplementary questions.

Mark Drakeford AC: The White Paper has closed its consultation phase, the responses to it are being analysed, and I'm sure the points that Jane Dodds has made on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon will be taken into account in that. My reading of the White Paper is slightly different to her own, because my understanding of the White Paper is that it doesn't put an obligation on the young person; it is that housing authorities are required to make sure that they provide those additional services to somebody from the care system. I entirely agree with the point that Jane Dodds has made, Llywydd, that the onus for that must not sit with the young person themselves. It is for the housing authority to make those inquiries, particularly if the young person is known to the system already and that local authority is the child's parent. It's not for the child to make that known; it's for the authority itself. I think that is where the White Paper suggests the responsibility should lie. It's absolutely not what we want to have a young person to have to relive the difficult and sometimes traumatic experiences that they have gone through in order to be able to open the door to the services that they need. It's for public authorities to take that responsibility on themselves, and I'm sure the Minister will be reinforcing that point as we work our way through the responses to the consultation.

Bus Reform

Hefin David AC: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans for bus reform? OQ60822

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that question. The publication of the bus reform road map this month marks a huge milestone in our programme, which is more ambitious than any other across the UK. It will culminate in legislation to ensure that buses do meet the needs of local communities, rather than the commercial requirements of bus operators.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Brif Weinidog. Just before I come to my supplementary, I want to welcome Kaia, Reggie and Nia from year 10 of Bedwas High School, who are writing my speech for my short debate on 'Should mobile phones be banned in schools?' They are in the gallery today.
Speaking of Bedwas, I was in Bedwas a week last Friday, where we held a bus surgery with Transport for Wales, Stagecoach, the leader of the council and Wayne David MP. Over 30 residents came to ask questions. One of the things that was clear, and it comes back to Llyr's first question, was that people didn't fully appreciate the amount of public subsidy that goes into bus services. People getting to work rely on public subsidy, and there must be a better way of doing it. As he outlined in his response to me, there is a better way in the bus Bill. But what we'd like to see and what residents would like to see is better connectivity between rail and bus services, including single ticketing, and also connections between rail services and bus services. Currently we're not there. How will the bus Bill enable us to achieve that, and how can I then report back to those people who came to my bus surgery in positive terms?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, I echo Hefin David's welcome to people in the public gallery. Llywydd, one of the things that I like the very most about the Senedd is the fact that on our way into the Chamber we pass through the Neuadd upstairs and people from any part of Wales are just able to have conversations with us. As I was making my way here today, I met a group of schoolchildren from Ystradgynlais who were just making their way into the building in order to come to watch First Minister's questions and to see other aspects of our work here on behalf of the different constituencies in Wales. Welcome to them as well.
The point that Hefin David makes about connectivity and making sure we bring together bus and rail services is why Transport for Wales now features more significantly in our plans for bus reform than it did when this was first discussed on the floor of the Senedd in the previous term. Because through the agency of Transport for Wales, we will be able to bring rail and bus services together, to plan for journeys in which people are able to move from one form of public transport to another in the way that Hefin David suggested.
The bus Bill is a major commitment of the Welsh Government. It will put right a failed experiment of 40 years, in which deregulation and privatisation have fragmented bus services, have failed to provide the public with a return on the investment that the public makes, and we're going to put that right here in Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Social and Economic Inequalities

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 8. How is the Welsh Government narrowing social and economic inequalities? OQ60804

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, all our interventions are designed to improve the socioeconomic status of people across Wales. Integrated impact assessments include a socioeconomic duty component, which helps to inform ministerial decision making. Our interventions have regular reviews, which then identify the changes that are needed.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the First Minister for that answer. Now, understandably and rightly, we often have a particular focus in Wales on the issue of poverty, either at an individual level or a community level, and not least, I have to say, when we're faced with a cost-of-living crisis, which has been made far worse by Conservative mismanagement of the economy and, often, a punitive benefits regime. I've said before that our efforts to tackle poverty in Wales are like swimming against the tide of a regressive UK Conservative Government. The sooner we have the administrative devolution of welfare and a progressive Labour UK Government to work with the better. But we also in Wales need to do whatever we can to equal up, by providing lifelong opportunities, regardless of the fortune of birth, so that everyone has the chance to improve the lot, of themselves and their families, and, by doing so, improving the lot of their communities as well. So, how does our Welsh Government narrow those inequalities, tear down the barriers that face people because of race, or gender, or class, and so much more, so that everyone in Wales has a fair shot at life's opportunities, and sometimes more than one shot if they need it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that? He summed up so much of what animates this Government and the Labour Party to which he and I belong. Because our ambition in being in politics is to make sure that the very uneven deal that people are offered at birth is put right by the actions that only a Government acting collectively, on behalf of the community, is able to do. That's why, when I answered Laura Anne Jones's question, I wanted to point to the fact that it is young people from the most disadvantaged communities who have made the greatest progress in education in Wales. It's why we are so serious about tackling health inequalities here in Wales. It's why we will create 20,000 new homes for social rent. It's because we want to put our finger on the scales on behalf of the people that Huw Irranca-Davies identified in his question. We live in a country that has become more and more sharply unequal. In 1976 Britain was the most equal country in the whole of Europe. Today we are by some distance, and accelerating, amongst the most unequal. And that affects the chances of all those people that Huw Irranca-Davies referred to.
What can this Government do? Well, as I say, we put our finger on that scale, we put it always on behalf of those people who need the help of Government the most, and know that, here in Wales, they will have a Government that is determined to mobilise the collective effort that we are able to make to provide them with those opportunities that they need now and will need again in the future.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The business statement and announcement is next. The Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's Plenary business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements, please, Trefnydd? The first is in relation to the school attendance code, which I understand hasn't been updated now for over a decade. That code, of course, determines what is or what isn't an authorised absence in our education system across Wales, and, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to take sufficient account of children with poor mental health. I have a constituent at the moment who has been in touch regarding his son, who has problems with anxiety. In spite of the fact that there's a general practitioner letter confirming that anxiety can often be the reason why this young person cannot attend school, he's being regarded as being unauthorised in terms of absences from school, and is now facing fines from Conwy County Borough Council, which seems to me to be completely and wholly inappropriate. So, I think there is an issue around the code and how it's being interpreted in some parts of Wales, and I would welcome some clarity on that.
Secondly, can I call for a statement in relation to prevention of future death reports in Wales, and whether Wales is actually learning from these? I was absolutely astonished to find out that, last year, some 21 per cent of all prevention of future deaths reports issued by coroners—that were issued across the whole of England and Wales—were in respect of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. That is an astonishing statistic. And we just had another prevention of future deaths report issued in north Wales last week, in respect of my constituent Jennifer Trigger. In January 2020 she suffered an acute stroke, and due to a misunderstanding caused by the alert system in the Wrexham Maelor Hospital, the time-critical treatment that she was prescribed was not given until 11 hours after it should have been administered. She, unfortunately, passed away, and as a result of the coroner's case into that particular issue, there was a prevention of future deaths report that was issued.
Now, clearly, we have to make sure that our NHS learns when issues like this occur and when reports of this nature are actually published. I cannot accept that it is appropriate that 21 per cent of all of those reports that have been issued have been in respect of one single health board, and that happens to be the health board that serves my constituents and yours, indeed, as well, Trefnydd. So, can we have a statement about what action is being taken, given that the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is in special measures? And what is going to be done to make sure that there's learning across the wider NHS? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I certainly agree with you that lessons, absolutely, have to be learnt, and I am very sorry to hear about your constituent's death. I will certainly ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to come forward with a written statement in response to your request.
Regarding the school attendance code, obviously, guidance is given to each local authority. You do mention a very specific case, and I would suggest you write to the Minister for Education and theWelsh Language.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement, please, from the Minister for Climate Change regarding the situation that arose quite suddenly yesterday in Hirwaun, regarding reinforced aerated autoclaved concretebeing found to be affecting 40 Trivallis properties, plus four privately owned properties. As you'll be well aware, like the situation across Wales, there's a huge strain in terms of trying to find alternative accommodation. There are almost 5,000 households currently registered with HomefinderRCT. So, trying to find alternative accommodation is a huge challenge. So, can I ask what support is being provided? And further, is it possible that other housing associations may also find further properties affected? I'd like to know what correspondence has been with housing associations and what assurances the Minister can provide, because, obviously, this is a hugely concerning situation, not just in Hirwaun, but I think it has implications for other parts of Wales as well.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the Minister's officials were contacted yesterday afternoon by the chief executive of Trivallis housing association, and the Minister has certainly welcomed the swift action taken by them to ensure the safety of their residents, and we certainly send sympathy to everyone affected. As you say, this is obviously a very worrying time for them. The Minister for Climate Change's officials will continue to work closely with Trivallis and partners as the situation develops.The issue with RAAC in these properties has been identified because of the survey work that's been commissioned to ensure that we do have a complete picture of RAAC across all our social housing stock.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm asking for two statements. The first is on Welsh Government progress in promoting the real living wage. Far too many people in Wales work on exploitative contracts not paying the real living wage and not giving them enough hours guaranteed each week. What has the Welsh Government done to ensure that those being paid directly by the Welsh Government either via a contractor or via organisations that are Welsh Government funded, such as health boards, pay the real living wage?
The second statement I'm asking for is on what action the Welsh Government is taking to improve productivity in the Welsh economy. Whilst an increase in teacher productivity would just mean larger classes, which I don't think we want, productivity gains are available in other areas. What action is being carried out to improve productivity in our hospitals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, we're very clear that paying the real living wage benefits employers as well as employees, and a comprehensive report by Cardiff University has shown that 94 per cent of real living wage accredited employers report having benefited from their accreditation. I think from a business and an economic point of view, paying the real living wage offers several benefits that contribute to productivity and overall well-being, and paying the real living wage we know boosts staff motivation, commitment, engagement and, of course, it reduces stress that workers may have about making ends meet. I think it also impacts on recruitment, very much so, and of course retention. It reduces the cost of having that churn in a workforce. Research from the Living Wage Foundation shows how productivity levels can rise as a result, leading to better overall performance.

Altaf Hussain AS: Trefnydd, I would like to request an urgent statement from the Minister for health regarding the gender identity development service. I won't rehearse the cost review of the issues with replacing the Tavistock services, including the inordinate delays for regional services. What concerns me is WPATH leaks. A few days ago, a large dump of files from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, or WPATH for short, cast serious doubt on the claims that the guidance the organisation provides is evidence based and safe. A leaked document shows clinicians discussing giving irreversible treatment to patients who are very unlikely to be able to provide informed consent, including the very young and those with serious mental health disorders. Some of the document's conversations suggest that the clinicians are unsure of the long-term effects of treatments they are providing. The document suggested that some WPATH members dismiss concerns about long-term patient outcomes, despite being aware of the potentially debilitating side effects of hormones and other treatments. This matters because the WPATH guidance forms the basis for our GIDS, or gender identity development service, in Wales. WPATH standards of care version 7 is recommended by Health Education and Improvement Wales as CPD for GPs in Wales. CPD is continuing personal development. I therefore call for an urgent statement from Welsh Government to address concerns and to reassure the public that gender identity services are safe and evidence based. Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It is a matter for each health board as to what services they do provide for their local population, and, of course, Welsh Government wouldn't comment on a leaked document.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I'd like to reiterate a request made earlier. Can I ask for a statement from the health Minister on preventable deaths in the health service, as reported in coroners' section 28 reports? They're there, of course, as reports to help prevent future deaths, and they clearly require urgent action by health boards, but, despite that statutory duty, there are worrying trends in north Wales. Now, I'll give you some statistics. In 2021-22 Betsi Cadwaladr accounted for 41 per cent of all preventable death coroner reports in Wales. A year later, 2021-22, that was up to 50 per cent. Now, in the last nine months, Betsi Cadwaladr health board accounts for 80 per cent of all of these preventable death reports in Wales. That's 21 out of a total of 25. That, to me, points to a very serious ongoing problem in the north, and we need to hear as a Senedd from the health Minister, working with Betsi Cadwaladr, what the plan is to make sure that the health board is responding appropriately to what is a very worrying trend, I have to say.

Lesley Griffiths AC: As I said in my answer to Darren Millar, I will ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to bring forward a statement.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I refer Members to my declaration of interests on the record? Minister, you'll be aware that workers in the Defence Electronics and Components Agency in my constituency have been on strike now for six months. Working people do not want to be on strike. These workers are proud of their high-skilled jobs and they want to return to work. For this to happen, we need a resolution everyone can support, or the employer to get back around the table and listen to working people. Frustratingly, Minister, this resolution is yet to be found between the employer and the workers. Can I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government about how the Welsh Government can encourage employers to engage with workers and trade unions in a meaningful way? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you're quite right, nobody wants to be on strike, and it is really important that the employer in this case, the Ministry of Defence, does get around the table with the workforce. I think the majority are probably represented by Unite, and you know that the Welsh Government is absolutely an advocate for social partnership.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'd like to request a statement from you about the Tan Lan embankment viability study in the Conwy valley. You will recall that the latest breach was during Storm Ciara in February 2020. Now, Natural Resources Wales have decided to walk away from this Tan Lan embankment, which protects a number of properties, a caravan site and various other farms. Now, whilst NRW quoted £150,000 for repair works, local farmers have actually done this for £15,000. Now, four years on, NRW is still refusing to compensate the farmers, and I held a meeting recently with residents, farmers and landowners, and they are furious. We really are struggling, so I would like a statement on NRW's ability—whether they are, in fact, able to do so—just to walk away from a natural flood defence scheme and tell residents, 'From now on, you'll have to pick up the cost for this.' Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not aware of the situation referred to. It may be best to write to the Minister for Climate Change directly.

Delyth Jewell AC: Trefnydd, last week, the residents of Aberfan were told that their community centre was facing closure. As you'll know, that building is more than bricks and mortar. It was built by the community after the disaster in 1966 that claimed the lives of 116 of its children and 28 adults. The book of remembrance for the dead was kept at the centre after Bethania chapel closed. It is a place that is testament to the resilience of a grief-stricken community, and the news that it might close its doors was met with anger and confusion. Now, 24 hours later, it seemed that it was only that the trust that owned the centre was stepping away. There was even a suggestion that the signs put up announcing its imminent closure were fakes, and there were some tasteless headlines saying that residents had been duped. This community is still grieving for its lost children. No matter how many years might have passed, it was not the right word to use. Now, I'm sure, Trefnydd, that you'll agree that this isn't a way to treat Aberfan. I realise local decisions like this aren't something the Government can get involved in, but I know residents would appreciate a statement heard in the Senedd about the importance of that community centre and how it stands not only as a witness to that valley's past, but also as a cornerstone of that community's future. Any statement that the Government could make would be a solace.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I certainly share your concern. I remember, when I was the Minister with responsibility for regeneration, visiting Aberfan to talk about what we could do—I think it was approaching the fiftieth anniversary, if I remember rightly—and to see what help we could give. And it may be advisable for, perhaps, the trust—I'm not aware of the situation that you describe—to write to the Minister with responsibility for regeneration to see if there is anything more that we could assist with.

Jayne Bryant AC: Minister, can I ask for a statement, please, from the Minister for Health and Social Services on access to the drug Fampyra, also known as Fampridine. Fampyra is a drug used by MS patients to improve their quality of life, and it was approved by the Welsh Government as an NHS-funded treatment in Wales in December 2019. Indeed, Wales was the first country in the UK to approve the routine use of the drug. It is therefore disappointing that, some four years on, this drug is not available to patients in the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area. I met with a constituent on Friday who has been waiting for the health board to put in place the arrangements to offer this drug, which could have a significant impact on her daily life. I understand the health board has gone back to the Welsh Government to approve additional investment to ensure the drug can be rolled out, but, at this stage, it's still unclear as to when the patients in the health board area will have access to this potentially life-improving medication. So, a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services would be very much appreciated on this.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I am aware that a business case for the use of this drug was presented to the executive board last month, and the aim is to commence patient assessments within the next two months—so, by next month.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I would like to request a statement, business Minister, please, from the Deputy Minister for sport. In the past day or so, UK Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, has announced that he supports a ban on biological men competing against women in sport. This, of course, makes complete sense to those of us who believe in fairness, safety and equality, yet, over the past few years, this Welsh Government has been very reluctant to stand up for fairness and safety in women’s sports, instead choosing to push biological falsehoods and gender ideology, and using women’s rights, sports and spaces as a sacrificial lamb. Now the leader of your Labour Party has said this, I would like the Deputy Minister to come to the Chamber to clarify the Welsh Government's position on whether it too now believes that Welsh women's sport should be protected from biological men and that, in Keir Starmer's words, common sense needs to prevail in terms of safety and integrity in sport. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, Keir Starmer isn't a representative here, and you will have heard the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism on this subject before. Nothing has changed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Trefnydd, I'd like an updated oral statement, please, on autism diagnosis. Referral to assessment and diagnostic services is made through several routes. For pre-school children, it can be done via the health service, or, for children attending school, it's done via the school-age assessment pathway. Therefore, it would be good to see a statement with input from both Ministers. Now, I have numerous cases of children waiting lengthy times for diagnosis. One example is a boy who started on the journey two years ago when he was seven years old, and he's been told that there is at least a further two years to wait, and, because of his needs for diagnosis through the medium of Welsh, the waiting is likely to be far longer. Another boy has also been on the waiting list for two years and has been told that there's at least a further 36-month wait. These children will go through three key stages of education before getting the vital diagnosis. It's simply not good enough. So, I'd like an update, please, from either the education or health Minister on what action the Government is taking to get to grips with this awful waiting list.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I think you raise a very important point. Clearly, the Welsh Government has done some significant work, both, I think, in funding and also bringing forward legislation and other ways of helping reduce the waiting list. I'm not sure if it would be the Minister for Health and Social Services or the Minister for education, but I will certainly ask either of them to update Members of the Senedd.

James Evans AS: Trefnydd, I'm back again this week asking for another urgent statement on the workplace recycling scheme that's being implemented by the Welsh Government. I've met with countless businesses and waste operators right across Wales who say to me that the scheme in its current form is unworkable and will drive many small businesses to close because the scheme is unworkable, they don't have the room for the bins, and they don't have the additional money in their bank to actually pay for the costs of all the additional bins. We do need an urgent statement on this before it's implemented on 6 April because we don't want to see the unintended consequence of this scheme coming to fruition without proper due diligence being put in place. So, I'd like that urgent statement. If the Government are not willing to bring that statement forward, I'll have to use other parliamentary means to get the Minister to this Chamber, because I do not want to see any businesses close unnecessary because the scheme has been ill-thought-out by the Government.

Mike Hedges AC: They can't afford six bins?

Lesley Griffiths AC: We'll I don't think it's been ill-thought-out—

James Evans AS: Why don't you go and speak to them, Mike, like the farmers you call over?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Trefnydd is responding to the request from the Member. The Trefnydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I certainty don't think it's been ill-thought-out. The Minister has done a significant amount of work with stakeholders ahead of this coming in, and there won't be time for another statement before the date you suggest.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: May I ask for a statement from the health Minister in relation to the contaminated blood scandal? As chair of the cross-party group on contaminated blood, I do appreciate the opportunity to have worked with the Government in calling for action from the UK Government. I am aware and appreciate that the Deputy Minister for Social Services wrote to the Paymaster General a few weeks ago asking for the process of establishing a body to pay compensation to be accelerated, but concerns have been raised once again this week that the Government is trying to kick the can down a road. The Leader of the House of Commons said last week that meetings were being arranged in order to gather further evidence. But the truth of the matter is that intensive consultation has happened over a lengthy period of time to bring us to this point. Some 80 victims have lost their lives since the recommendations on compensation were made. More are losing their lives every week, and we must see urgent action. So, I would appreciate a statement from the Minister outlining how the Welsh Government will take further action and work with us as a cross-party group to urge the UK Government to ensure that this money is paid.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am aware the Deputy Minister for Social Services has written to the UK Government. I'm not aware she's had a response as yet, but I know she's very keen to work with the cross-party group, and I'm sure, once she's had further information, she'll be able to update you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the statement by the Minister for Social Justice on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The Senedd has been transformed over the past quarter century. It has become a Parliament in the true sense of the word, assuming primary law-making powers and powers over taxation, among other new responsibilities. An effective parliament is the cornerstone of a thriving democracy. As our national Parliament, the Senedd plays a key role in representing the people of Wales, in making legislation, in scrutinising the Welsh Government, and in debating the issues that matter to people across Wales. Given the responsibilities the Senedd has acquired over time, it is more important than ever that the Senedd is an effective Parliament that represents the people it serves. A factor that constrains the Senedd's ability to represent the people of Wales effectively is that it does not reflect the make-up of the Welsh population in terms of gender. This limits the Senedd's ability to draw on the range of lived experiences present within society, and it weakens the Senedd's claim to represent the whole population. The Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform identified this as an area for improvement. It recognised that women are the under-represented majority in this Senedd, and recommended in its report that the Senedd should be elected with integrated statutory gender quotas. The special purpose committee's report was endorsed by this Senedd, and the Government committed to bringing forward this legislation. Yesterday, I laid the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill before the Senedd. This is the second Bill within a package of reforms whose purpose is to make the Senedd a more effective legislature that is better able to serve the people of Wales. It takes a further step on the Senedd reform journey and complements the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill introduced by the Counsel General, now at Stage 3 proceedings.
Llywydd, as the Member in charge, I recognise and respect your own determination in relation to competence. You will know that, based on all the information available to me, I am of the view that the Bill is within the legislative competence of the Senedd. With such a difference in views, I believe that a final decision on whether the Bill should proceed can only rest with the body where this Bill began: the Senedd itself. The only way to achieve this is to introduce this Bill and for it to proceed to Stage 1 scrutiny. The Senedd committee will then be able to come to a view on the question of competence. The committee's view will form a central part of our consideration of the next steps on the Bill.
Llywydd, the purpose of this Bill is to strengthen the Senedd by seeking to ensure that it broadly reflects the gender make-up of the population it serves, in particular with regard to the representation of women. In 2003, Wales became the first country in the world to elect women to half of its Parliament's seats. That result has not been repeated at Senedd general elections in the 20 years that have passed since then. Today, women make up 51 per cent of the population of Wales but only take up 43 per cent of the Senedd's seats. Women are still under-represented in the Senedd, and they have been for many years. Evidence from around the world shows that increasing the number of women legislators can lead to a more effective legislature and, therefore, has positive impacts on the legitimacy of the legislature and on democracy more widely.
Increasing the representation of women is not only about improving representation for women; it is about improving representation for everyone. Evidence shows that one of the main barriers to the election of women is the fact that some political parties have not put forward women candidates in sufficient numbers. This trend applies also in Wales. At the most recent Senedd election, in 2021, less than a third of the 470 candidates put forward by political parties in Wales were women—only 31 per cent. This Bill aims to redress this imbalance so that future Seneddau will be more effective. Gender quotas for elections are commonplace around the world and are now used in more than 130 countries. Evidence from countries such as Spain, Belgium and Ireland shows that gender quotas can be an effective means of increasing the number of women elected to parliaments. The number of women in the parliaments of 11 EU countries that used gender quotas increased almost three times faster than in EU countries without quotas.
Llywydd, this Bill introduces requirements that are designed to maximise the chances of delivering a Senedd that is broadly reflective of the gender make-up of Wales. The Bill will require political parties putting forward more than one candidate in a constituency to ensure that women make up at least half of the list. The Bill also introduces requirements relating to the placement of women on party lists, to secure a proportional share of more winnable list positions for women. Parties will need to place a woman at the top of at least half of their constituency candidate lists across Wales. A candidate on a list who is not a woman must be followed by a woman. Introducing a minimum 50 per cent threshold for women will lead to an increase in women candidates at Senedd elections, and the additional step of introducing placement criteria increases the likelihood that a greater proportion of elected candidates are women.
To ensure the candidate list requirements can be implemented effectively, the Bill provides for a system of enforcement to be implemented through secondary legislation, and the new role of the national nominations compliance officer will be created to support enforcement, alongside the constituency returning officers.
Llywydd, from the expert panel's report, 'A Parliament that works for Wales', through to the special purpose committee report and its recommendations that were supported by a majority in this Senedd, the result of this legislation would be a Senedd that can draw on a broader range of lived experiences, a more representative Senedd that is better placed to engage with the diverse communities that we represent, and, crucially, a more effective Senedd that will facilitate better scrutiny and decision making as a result.
This Bill, together with the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, takes forward most of the special purpose committee’s recommendations. Additionally, the Welsh Government has committed to taking forward the special purpose committee’s recommendations relating to Senedd candidate diversity information and diversity and inclusion strategies. We will look to publish guidance to encourage political parties, as important gatekeepers of political representation, to publish diversity and inclusion strategies for Welsh elections. The work will complement our wider work to create a more equal, more inclusive Wales—work exemplified in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', the LGBTQ+ action plan, and the disability rights taskforce.
Llywydd, this Bill is about delivering a more effective Senedd, and I'm hopeful that the reforms in this Bill will give the diverse women of Wales, across the political spectrum, the confidence to put their names forward to successfully stand as candidates in Senedd elections and, in turn, improve the work of this Senedd. Women have so much to offer that will benefit everyone in Wales.
I'd like to thank all stakeholders who've worked with us on this journey to introducing groundbreaking legislation that we are confident will make a lasting difference to this Senedd and for the people of Wales. I'm pleased to be introducing the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill a few days after International Women’s Day, and I look forward to working with Members and Senedd committees to secure the Bill’s passage onto the statute book. Diolch yn fawr.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for the advance copy of today's statement and, indeed, the briefing that she held for me, with her officials, at the tail end of last week?
I have to say, I'm very concerned that this Bill is being discussed in the Senedd today, and the reason I have that concern is because, as we all know in this Senedd, the Llywydd has written to every Member of the Senedd to say that, in her view, and the view of the legal advice that she has received, which is consistent with the advice that was given to the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform, of which I was a Member, this particular piece of legislation is not within the competence of the Senedd. And I think—and I think the people of Wales will think—that it is extraordinary that this Senedd is spending time, energy and resources focusing on a piece of legislation that it does not have the competence to be able to deliver, rather than focusing on the everyday concerns of the people of Wales, such as the NHS, our school system, our economy, our transport system et cetera. So, I think that it is a concern and, obviously, whilst the Welsh Government has the prerogative of being able to introduce a piece of legislation in this way, I expect that it ought to be the subject of detailed scrutiny, through the Senedd scrutiny process, with our committee process. However, as you will know, Minister, the Government, with the support of Plaid Cymru—I don't know why—has decided that a shortened period of scrutiny is appropriate for this Bill, a shorter than usual period of scrutiny. You're going to chop down the opportunity for the committee to undertake its important work on this Bill, in spite of the huge question marks over the competency of this Senedd to be able to legislate in the area. And the result of that will be that, instead of there being 12 weeks for the committee to be able to consider Stage 1 prior to reporting, it will have just nine weeks. That's less time to engage with stakeholders, less time to engage with the public, over what I believe is a very important Bill. In addition to that, there'll be less time than usual to table amendments both at Stage 2 and Stage 3. So, an alternative opportunity to timetable for this Bill was put forward at the Business Committee this morning, and yet it was rejected by your party. I'd be grateful to have a decent explanation as to why you feel that that is appropriate, given the magnitude of this Bill and its importance to this Senedd. It's ironic, isn't it, that a package of reforms, Senedd reforms, that are supposed to improve scrutiny in this place, we're being denied to scrutinise—the opportunity to do that scrutiny process justice.
Now, if I can turn to where we agree with the Government, we agree with the Government that all political parties in Wales need to do more to address the lack of diversity in this Senedd and, indeed, amongst our candidates that are put forward for election to this Senedd. There's no question about that. My party, in particular, has not been very good at getting the gender balance right. We've done well on other aspects of diversity and, obviously, we were delighted to welcome the first woman of colour to this Senedd on our benches. Indeed, we've done rather well without the sort of positive discrimination that is advocated by the Labour Party. I can see the First Minister looking at our benches at the moment.

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm looking for a woman.

Darren Millar AC: Yes, I can see that you're looking for a woman. I'm looking for other aspects of diversity that are missing from your benches, First Minister, which I'm sure you will accept you need to do better at in terms of some ethnic minority groups that are under-represented in this Senedd, age groups that are under-represented, disability is under-represented, certain faith groups are under-represented in this Senedd—there are all sorts of aspects of diversity that are under-represented in this Senedd that I and my party want to do better at.
What we disagree with is pitting gender and giving gender a greater focus and priority than all of these other aspects of diversity, and we certainly do not agree that there ought to be any statutory requirements or quotas as far as diversity is concerned. We believe that people should be elected to this Senedd and should be candidates for election to this Senedd on the basis of merit—and I can hear people rehearsing that line—on the basis of merit, not because of the colour of their skin, not because of the fact that they self-identify to be a man or a woman, not because of their sexual orientation or anything else, but because people want to elect them. And we believe that anybody should have the opportunity to be elected.So, that's why we will be opposing this Bill and the time wasting that I believe it's doing in this Senedd, because it's a reserved matter to the UK Parliament. 
In terms of the purpose of the Bill, it quite clearly is to promote opportunities for women. It sits firmly within the equalities section of law, which is reserved to the UK Parliament, and it doesn't actually deliver on the promise that was made by the former leader of Plaid Cymru and the First Minister when they said very clearly that they will introduce mandatory zipping on lists. There's no mandatory zipping required on these particular lists according to the Bill that's in front of us today, because, as you will know, Minister, the Bill provides for lists to be entirely made up of women but not entirely made up of men. There's no equality there. There's no requirement for it to be zipped in a particular way. The one thing that it does prevent is two men appearing in succession on a list. That's the only thing it prevents. It doesn't introduce any kind of zipping, which is against the principle that was set out by the First Minister in the joint statement with the leader of Plaid Cymru back in May 2022, and, indeed, just last year, when the First Minister was wanting to make progress on the whole issue of Senedd reform. The Bill also does not even define what a woman actually is, and I would ask you, Minister—perhaps you can tell us what a woman is, because, as far as I can see, it is allowing people to self-identify whether they consider themselves to be a woman or not. There’s no sanction on the face of the Bill for those who claim to be a woman who clearly are not, for example, which also seems to be extraordinary.
So, it amounts to self-ID via the back door. We don’t have the competence to be able to deliver. You’re curtailing the scrutiny, even though you say you’re trying to improve the scrutiny processes of the Senedd. You’ve put in here no requirement for—and I believe that we should have this requirement, by the way—. There’s no statutory requirement for diversity strategies on political parties. I’d welcome that. I think that’s a good, positive thing you could have put into the Bill, but didn’t bother with, in spite of the fact that that was also a recommendation from the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform. So, this is all over the place. I don’t think that it should see the time of day. I would question the Welsh Government’s rationale for bringing it forward.
And one final question if I may—and thank you for giving me the opportunity to scrutinise this, Llywydd—and that is on the subject of costs. I’ve looked through the explanatory memorandum and it suggests minimal costs will be associated with this, but we all know that certainly won’t be the case, because there’ll be significant legal challenges if this Bill goes forward, not least, probably, in the Supreme Court, and we all know how expensive those things are. So, can you tell us whether there’s an estimate of the costs, whether you’ve made any provision as a Welsh Government for those sorts of costs? And can you also tell us what the costs of bringing this forward today have been so far, in terms of the costs of legal advice and other work that has been undertaken by the Welsh Government around the legislative competence? Because when I look in the explanatory memorandum, it is very telling. There’s no information on legislative competence other than a single sentence—a single sentence—on an otherwise completely blank page. And given that that’s the biggest question mark that people have over this Bill, you would have thought that you’d set out a little bit more information than a single sentence saying that, in your view, it’s in competence.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. Well, I'm very pleased you say that it is a very important Bill, because it is. It's a groundbreaking piece of legislation. And yesterday, when I published this Bill, there was much welcome that came from across Wales, and I think this is one of the interesting things, that I’m not sure whether you recognise the extent of engagement. I turn to the Chair of the special purpose committee here, but before that to Dawn Bowden, and the Committee on Senedd Electoral Reform. Back in April 2022, the Women’s Equality Network for Wales, representing organisations across the whole of Wales, from Merched y Wawr to women’s institutes to Women’s Aid groups, local authorities, the Wales Trades Union Congress, all saying that they welcome the joint statement by Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru that legally binding quotas were to be introduced for Senedd elections.
And I think it’s great that you’ve made those points about we do need more Senedd Members who are women from under-represented groups. We need more black, Asian and minority ethnic women—all parties recognise that; we recognise that—LGBTQ+ women, disabled women, women with other protected characteristics, and also, as WEN Wales has said in welcoming the Bill yesterday, the Diverse5050 campaign. Now, let's recognise that’s a joint campaign, not just with WEN Wales, but with the Electoral Reform Society, Race Council Cymru, EYST—the ethnic youth support team—calling for gender balance of elected Members at both national and local level.
So, we are here debating a Bill that has been endorsed, and indeed the evidence provided for a number of years, in terms of our recognition of the need for Senedd reform. Because it does go back to the fact—. And there are women in this Senedd here—more in number, I would say, on this side of the Senedd than over there, but we recognise we have also got to address other diversity issues. But more women in the Senedd better reflects the gender make-up of Wales: good for politics, good for representation, good for policy making. And that’s what comes through in terms of a recognition of the importance of this Billtoday.
I have commented on the competence issues, and very respectfully, in my oral statement today, Llywydd. But we are taking forward the will of the Senedd, which endorses the recommendations of the special purpose committee, and I've made that statement. I've said that, in my view, the provisions of the Bill would be within the Senedd's legislative competence.

Jane Hutt AC: And I think that what is important is that we look at the purpose of the Bill. You've commented on the purpose of the Bill, Darren. The purpose of the Bill is to establish a more effective Senedd, and, as such, the Bill is within the Senedd's competence. And I think that point about purpose is crucial to this. Because, if you look at the test laid down in the Government of Wales Act 2006, and I'll quote:
'The question whether a provision of an Act of the Senedd relates to a reserved matter is determined by reference to the purpose of the provision, having regard (among other things) to its effect in all the circumstances. '
That's the test. That's the test about competence. The purpose of this Bill is to establish a more effective Senedd. Surely we can unite on that goal, to deliver a more effective Senedd?
I will comment on the point about the timetable, because it is important that, in terms of the special purpose committee's report, 'Reforming our Senedd: A stronger voice for the people of Wales', it did set out an ambitious timetable to implement Senedd reform in time for our next scheduled Senedd elections in 2026. And the Trefnydd did explain—and I know this—in her letter to the Business Committee, which you'll be aware of, of course, Darren, that the timetable proposed by the Welsh Government is fundamental to maintaining a pathway to implementing the measures in time for the 2026 Senedd elections. So, we are working to ensure that the measures are in place ahead of that election.
And it is part of the package of Senedd reform, along with the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. Last week, we debated that, we took that through, and there is that important point that this is part of that package of Senedd reform. A delay of even a month to the passage of the Bill—. And this is important for all the stakeholders and, indeed, the committee, obviously, the Senedd reform committee, to scrutinise the Bill. A delay of even a month to the passage of the Bill would have implications for that implementation work, for electoral administrators and political parties to have time to prepare for the election after the relevant legislation is made. I think it does go back to the fact that this is a journey that we've been on—an extensive journey—which has involved all those stakeholders that I have referred to. And it is about civic society; it is about the opportunity that we have to deliver that more representative and effective legislature for Wales, and I think we have a commitment to do that.
I just want to pick up some of your more technical points—I'm sure we'll discuss this in the Senedd reform committee. The rules in this Bill don't prevent a zipping approach. A list that alternates between candidates who are women and candidates who are not women will be fully compliant with the vertical rules, as long as at least half the candidates are women. And, by requiring that a woman follows any candidate who is not a woman on a list, the rules make sure that women are, at the very least, placed in every other place on a list. But should a list have a woman directly after another woman on a list, that would be a compliant list. Now, we will look at all these issues as we move forward into the scrutiny.
I think it is really important that you raise these issues about diversity, and the ways in which we can take this forward, because this is about—.The special purpose committee looked at this very carefully—whether we'll hear from the Chair of that committee. They looked, on a cross-party basis—and I think you were involved in some of those discussions—at diversity quotas, for possible implementation sometime in the future. But, in the meantime, the steps that we can take, in parallel with gender quotas, I think, are important.
You know that I've said in my oral statement that we're encouraging political parties to publish diversity and inclusion strategies for Welsh elections. So, I'm taking it, from what you're saying, Darren, that you will—the Welsh Conservatives will—publish your diversity and inclusion strategies. I know that all of the organisations—the Electoral Reform Society and WEN Wales—will want to encourage, want to support. They've been working with political parties across the Chamber. We'll need to do that, in terms of preparing,to ensure that we have greater transparency around diversity information for Senedd candidates. That's also ongoing, and we're exploring how we may be able to encourage and support political parties to do more in this area.
Now, I think what is most important is that women are the under-represented majority in this Senedd—certainly, I would have to say, within the Welsh Conservative group—so, our focus for now—[Interruption.] So, our focus for now is on gender quotas. I recall very fondly, actually, my memories of talking to—[Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'd like to hear the Minister now, if you can show a bit of silence.

Jane Hutt AC: I'll finish on this point, because I will focus on the very important—[Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can we allow the Minister to continue?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. This is why we need a gender-balanced Senedd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you. Think about the language you use, even when the microphone is not on. The Minister to continue, please.

Jane Hutt AC: I was going to say that I do miss the informed engagement that I had with some of your former colleagues. I'm delighted that the Welsh Conservative women Members have come to our women's caucus meetings, and, in fact, your former colleagues—Welsh Conservative colleagues. I recall Suzy Davies, who actually is involved, I believe, as a trustee of WEN Wales, really talking and engaging with us. The women's caucus, I think, is really important.
Only two weeks ago, I was in Ireland hearing about the beneficial impact of gender quotas—as I've said, 130 countries across the world. I'm glad that you see that this is an important Bill, and that you do agree with the Government that we need more diversity. This Bill will help us move for more diversity, but it will move for representation—for gender representation—for the most under-represented people in Wales in this Chamber. I very much look forward to this scrutiny and the engagement that we'll have, but please listen to the people outside this Chamber as well, who have helped take us on this journey. Diolch yn fawr.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for the statement today. It's been a long time coming, and I'm pleased to see this important Bill starting its journey through the Senedd today. It is timely that we are discussing the Bill today, following the successful completion of Stage 2 of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill last week, given that the provisions of the two Bills complement each other and are a core part of the agreed package of Senedd reform measures agreed by two thirds of the Members of the Senedd here, and also agreed by the democratic structures of Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party.
Like other aspects of the package, it does not fulfil all of our aspirations at once, of course, but does the Minister agree that the important thing in the case of this Bill, like the first Bill, is to have the reforms in place by 2026? I was pleased to hear the Government's commitment to work with Members to ensure that the Bill does reach the statute book, and I am looking forward to starting the scrutiny work tomorrow in the Reform Bill Committee, when the Minister and her officials appear before us, as there is no time to waste.
The central aim driving everything is the creation of a more effective Senedd on behalf of, and for, the people of Wales. This is another aspect, therefore, of expanding the representation and effectiveness of the Senedd, in exactly the same way as expanding the number of Members and introducing an electoral system where all Members are elected entirely through proportional representation. This will make the Senedd more representative of the people and the nation that it aims to represent, and will make the institution more effective.
A Senedd where women, who are the majority of the Welsh population according to the 2021 census, remain a minority adversely affects the Senedd's ability to operate effectively, and its ability to fully reflect the country that it tries to represent. It would surely hinder the achievement of the central aim forming the basis for Senedd reform, namely to create a more purposeful and powerful institution to carry out the democratic will of the people of Wales, if we were to recreate on a wider scale, in a Senedd of 96 Members, the failure that there has been to create a Senedd that reflects the population in every Senedd of 60 Members, other than during the period between 2003 and 2007.
It is clear, as the Minister said, that we have a serious problem when only 31 per cent of candidates in the 2021 Senedd election were women. And we have heard that legislatures that are more or less balanced in terms of gender, as well as reflecting and representing the population better, are more effective in terms of the range of policy expertise, in terms of integrity in public life and in terms of developing different leadership styles. It's also clear that this kind of mechanism raises the bar for everyone, and improves the quality of our politics for everyone. It is democracy that benefits. It's clear that, if we want to guarantee that the new Senedd remains true to that commitment, all of the political parties will need to play a part in that, and this Bill does provide a clear and practical statutory mechanism to try to ensure that.
We have already heard a lot of noise from the Conservatives—and we'll hear more, I'm sure—about what the Bill does not do. But, what about focusing on what it does do? It introduces a pragmatic mechanism that will operate within the parliamentary, electoral and democratic systems that we are familiar with, and that the first Bill develops further, the system of regional lists, the process of nominating candidates, and so forth.
As well as being the first nation in Britain to get rid of the old-fashioned first-past-the-post system at national level, in exchange for a system of proportional representation, Wales will also be the first country in Britain to introduce gender quotas at the parliamentary level.This is a radical and innovative development, with our Senedd leading the way, and it's a sign of the ambitious, independent country that we are working towards creating, where Members of the national legislature reflect the population.
And, of course, this is only a starting point. And for those who do not yet share our ambition regarding the constitutional future of Wales, it is a sign of our seriousness in creating a Senedd that is properly mature and effective, a place where we can also be mature about a difference of opinion on the issue of competence, which does not in any way—as the Llywydd’s own letter to the Reform Bill Committee acknowledges—prevent the Senedd from doing everything in its power to put this Bill on the statute books, in place by 2026, and that is what we will be working constructively to try to do. Because this is not for our sake, those of us who are here now, but for the people of Wales and their Senedd.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. This is an exciting afternoon; this is a really important afternoon for us in our Senedd. The electoral candidate lists Bill is, as you said, a part of that package of reforms to deliver our commitment to make the Senedd a more effective legislature for and on behalf of the people of Wales. I see it very much in the spirit of the well-being of future generations, of our young people and what they foresee as their opportunities to participate and succeed and take on from the roles that we have played. And, of course, the work has been done—so much of the work has been done. And I think this is the point, that the scrutiny that now needs to happen is the scrutiny of the Bill, but the evidence that we've got that has led, through the special purpose committee, to this Bill is extensive. I'll just reflect on that.
The majority of Senedd Members in July 2022 voted for this. We voted for this, the whole package of Senedd reform. We voted here in this Senedd and it does reflect that commitment in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. I was a Member, and I can't remember how many of us, the men and women who are here today, together, were part of 2003, that second—. I know that Elin Jones, the Llywydd, was, because we're one of the four remaining class of 1999. But, in 2003, it was extraordinary that we had 50 per cent women. All over the world, people were asking, 'Where is this place, Wales? How did you get 50 per cent? How did you manage it?' Well, if you look at the figures, we managed it mainly because some political parties took positive action. Indeed, the Labour Party having taken positive action from day 1 back in 1998, 1999 through our twinning system. We've always outnumbered the men, haven't we, in our Labour group? Quite effectively. And, indeed, in the Cabinet as well. This is about positive action actually turning into legislation that actually means that everyone can benefit from that.
I just want to say that, in terms of the ways in which we want to take this forward and the purpose—. The crucial point is the purpose in relation to competence. A more gender-balanced legislature is shown to strengthen its legitimacy—it's crucial—the legitimacy of us representing the people of Wales. Growth in the number of women parliamentarians, evidence shows, can revitalise democracy, and also ensure that interest in politics among women voters increases, when there are more women candidates.
I was in Ireland a couple of weeks ago. When they actually started introducing quotas, from a very, very low base, in Ireland, they had 90 per cent more women candidates in the election, and then over 40 per cent more were elected. I met with some businesswomen, women from academia—not political women—at a St David's Day event. They were striving, through business, commerce, the public sector, the third sector, to deliver for the people of the Republic, for the people of Ireland, but particularly to get women's interests at the forefront. And they said, 'We do need to have women in the Dáil, we need to have that representation'. Evidence from Ireland, Europe, and across the world shows that gender quotas can be effective in bringing, as I said, more women into politics.
I'm grateful for your points. We will then move forward in terms of the scrutiny. Can I just also say that this is about role models? We have young people here in the Chamber—I'm not sure how many are here with us. And we had a lot of women here last week, questioning the Counsel General about the appalling way in which the 1950s women were treated, about losing their pensions. Delyth Jewell asked a question of the Counsel General. The Chamber was packed with women from the 1950s and 1960s who've lost out on their pension—all generations of women are interested in this point. And how thrilled they were to hear the Counsel General speak up on their behalf. I've had that feedback from constituents, and I hope, all across the Chamber, you will have that too. But to quote Hillary Clinton, 'You can't be it if you can't see it'. We need women in positions of leadership for the women and girls of Wales. Newly elected women—and we will get many more of them as a result of this—can act as catalysts for other women to stand for election.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I think you make a really important point about parliaments that properly represent their communities making better, more informed decisions than those that do not. And so, as one of our original Welsh legislators, I'd like to start by asking what your personal reflections are on how having a comparatively high level of women Assembly Members and Members of the Senedd has helped this Senedd be more effective in its decision making.
Secondly, I note your comments around the experience from Ireland, and your comments in reply to the previous Member that, since the country's inaugural gender quota election in 2016, the number of women candidates contesting there has increased by 90 per cent, while the number of women elected has increased by 44 per cent. However, looking at that example of the Irish Parliament itself, men still outnumber women by around 3.5:1. So, I'd be grateful if you could elaborate on how, if the Welsh Government's proposals are taken forward, mechanisms will be put in place to ensure that a quota doesn't become the end of the issue, and that real change is delivered.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Vikki Howells. I'm always a bit reticent about reflecting on personal experience, but I served, before I came to this Senedd, in a local authority—and, I have to say, in a Labour group—where there were very, very, few women. Many of you will have had that experience, when the meetings often were opened by the leader and the chair saying, 'Good evening, boys'. That's the way the world was, many decades ago here in Wales. Because we certainly weren't recognised actually as existing as women. I never actually succeeded to get any further than being vice-chair of a committee at local government level. So, that was why, when we came forward with our 'Yes for Wales' campaign, which many of you were involved in, we actually had a campaign for fair representation of women, which Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and Labour women were involved in.
I have to pay tribute to the late Val Feld, who was one of the first elected Members of this Senedd and sadly died—we've got the purple plaque in remembrance of her—and how she managed to get into our Government of Wales legislation the commitment to promote equality of opportunity. But, in a sense, we have lived through extraordinary times to have a Senedd that has seen women in positions of power across the Senedd. As I say, it's not just in Government; it's the Chairs of the committees, it's the Llywydd—Dame Rosemary Butler before the Rt Hon Elin Jones. We've had women being Chair of the Standards Committee and leader of our group, Vikki. Every woman in this Chamber and over the years has played an important part in creating this Welsh democracy that we're so proud of.
But I think, also, just in terms of what it means, there's plenty of evidence, and I hope that the committee will look at this. Women in politics, and this is from widespread evidence, prioritise different policy and legislative matters, prioritise particular types of work, e.g. constituency work, champion particular ways of working, drive a higher calibre of candidates overall, create role models in positions of political leadership, increase minority representation, and also, interestingly—this is global evidence—decrease corruption and unethical activity. This is where we have got to—[Interruption.] You can look at the evidence, and I'm sure that the committee will do so. This is a real opportunity for Wales and it is an opportunity for the people that we represent.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister, and for outlining so clearly that the aim of this Bill is to improve the way that this place represents Wales. Because we have to ask the question as to why are we reforming the Senedd, if not to improve the way that it is able to create and scrutinise policy that is aimed at improving the lives of the people of Wales, because without changing the diversity of those who are sent here, to sit in this Chamber to do that, that will not happen. This important step towards improving the nature of the representation of our communities, enriching the life experiences of policy makers, is one to be welcomed, and embraced and supported to the fullest degree. Minister, do you agree that reforming the Senedd without reforming the way that it can represent our communities through this Bill is a false step, and that further delay or a lack of action will endanger not only the reform process and the aim of creating a more efficient legislature to serve all the citizens of Wales, but also the reputation of the Senedd internationally?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. I have said this is very much an important part of the package of Senedd reform, and there's no question it is a package. It is a crucial part of that package of reforms to deliver that commitment to make it a more effective legislature for and on behalf of the people of Wales. I think that's why it's so important again to reflect out to what is being said about what we're doing today by others. The Wales TUC general secretary, Shavanah Taj, welcomed the publication of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill today:
'We share Welsh Government’s ambition for a more diverse Senedd, and know that many Senedd members and other organisations are equally committed to this too.
'Politics—just like all other aspects of public life—should reflect the communities it serves. We are proud that trade union activists have gone on to take up leading roles in politics and other aspects of civil society.'
'This legislation will ensure that there are measures in place to counter the harmful effects of structural inequalities'—
we were talking about this earlier today—
'racism and other forms of discrimination.... We hope that it gains cross-party support and results in the more representative Senedd our country deserves.'

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The issue of Senedd competence in this matter was always likely to be contested. As the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee will turn its attention to this Bill, as Chair, I will withhold commenting on this issue at the moment, although I should note that, in my former role as Chair of the special purpose committee, we said this matter could be contested and arguments could be finely balanced. I do note that, aside from the issue of competence in this Parliament here and now, this type of legislation is very common internationally and it has been used to ensure that the representation in other Parliaments is more reflective of the wider population by legislative design and intent, not by accident. Internationally, there have been many successful efforts to overturn historical and societal biases in the diverse selection of candidates in winnable seats. We're not alone in Wales, and we're far from the first in trying to achieve a more representative and thereby more effective Parliament through legislative means. I also note that the Welsh Government is committed to taking forward the special purpose committee's recommendations relating to Senedd candidate diversity information and diversity inclusion strategies. So, can I ask, how will you be engaging with the political parties in Wales to develop the guidance, to drive up best practice and transparency in the promotion and selection of a far wider diversity of candidates across all political parties? And just finally, Llywydd, the progressive road is not always the easy road, but it is the right road, so good luck in your intent with this legislation, Minister.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Huw Irranca-Davies, and thank you for your leadership. Your chairing of the special purpose committee was such an important contribution in your political career—I hope you see that—and in your life as well. It was such an important contribution. Indeed, everybody who's played a part so far—formerly Dawn Bowden chairing the Senedd reform committee.
As you say, there's evidence from around the world. I've mentioned the 130 countries, and over half of electoral systems actually have a form of gender quota, so why can't Wales be the first in the United Kingdom to move forward on this road? I won't go back over the issues that we feel will be important in terms of the way forward, but I think it's important that we see that these are ways of working that actually, as you say, mustn't be by accident. This is about legislative design and intent. That's why this is a proper process, introducing the Bill today—much scrutiny, much development, much discussion.
As you will know, the Electoral Reform Society has actually been working with political parties over the last few years, though not all have engaged fully, perhaps. They were certainly working when you were chairing your committee, and they're ready to work with political parties in terms of implementing the specific legislation we're discussing today in terms of gender quotas. I met with the Women's Equality Network Wales last week; they're keen, as are the ERS, to get working with political parties on this guidance for diversity and inclusion. I'm really grateful, Darren Millar, that we have got an agreement there that we are going to work on this. I hope that, as all the leaders are here today, that is a commitment to those diversity and inclusion strategies, which you, of course, looked at carefully.
There isn't much experience yet across the world in terms of addressing those issues. What we're doing with our gender quotas is a candidate system, not a reserve system. That's an important decision that's been made as a result of your evidence. We now move forward with legislative design and intent.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Having fair and equal representation for all is a victory for all. That is the essence of what you are seeking to achieve with this Bill, Minister. As a man, as men, we benefit as citizens, as fellow Members of the Senedd, from hearing and listening to the voices of women in this place. Because if that isn't the case, we lose that wealth of experience, that perspective on life experiences that is crucial to enable us as a Senedd to do our proper work, to represent the people of Wales in all of their diversity. And certainly, in all of their diversity, the 21 per cent of our people who have disabilities. We have to look at that too. But this is a fundamental and key step forward. And as we deliver this step forward, we can then go on to use the same mechanisms for the whole range of diversity that we want to see represented in this place.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Adam Price, for those very important points. We shall all move forward.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: The Warm Homes Programme

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the Warm Homes programme. The Minister, Julie James, to make the statement.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This Senedd has rightly expressed a great deal of interest in the new Warm Homes programme. I'm pleased to confirm it will go live on 1 April with advice and referral services provided by Energy Savings Trust and installation services provided by British Gas to improve the fabric of homes across Wales, and assurance services are to be provided by Pennington Choices.
The new programme will launch in a complex and challenging landscape. The cost-of-living crisis continues to have a detrimental effect on living standards across Wales. Having just seen the hottest global year on record in 2023 and amongst the wettest winters ever recorded in Wales, the climate emergency is moving from the inevitable future to inescapable present reality.
Many of our homes are amongst the oldest and least energy efficient in Europe. This means they take more expensive energy to keep warm in winter, driving up our carbon emissions. It means that, whilst the recent Ofgem announcement on the price cap reduction will bring welcome relief to some households, many in Wales continue to struggle with increased energy costs and are pushed into fuel poverty.
In 2021 Welsh homes accounted for approximately 10 per cent of all greenhouse gas emissions in Wales. Last summer I set out in a policy statement how the new Warm Homes programme will continue to act as Welsh Government’s primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty, whilst at the same time playing its part in achieving a net-zero Wales by 2050. It will take a fabric, worst and low-carbon first approach to improve the long-term energy efficiency of the least thermally efficient low-income households in Wales. Our two-pronged approach will deliver a comprehensive energy advice service for everyone in Wales and physically improve the homes of the fuel poor.
It builds on a strong legacy and complements our existing work in the social housing sector, where we have already made a significant difference in improving the thermal efficiency of homes in Wales. Up until the end of March 2023, more than £440 million has been invested to improve home energy efficiency through the Warm Homes programme, helping more than 77,000 lower income households in the owner-occupied and private rental sectors to reduce their emissions and their bills. We expect figures from this year to confirm that over 200,000 people have benefited from energy efficiency advice through the Warm Homes programme since its launch in 2011. In the social housing sector, around £260 million has been committed through the optimised retrofit programme over this term of government.
Our continued investment in the Warm Homes and optimised retrofit programmes, or ORP, will drive further improvements for the least energy efficient homes in Wales. Channelling ORP investment through social landlords supports a testing and learning approach to decarbonise Welsh homes effectively and efficiently.
Dirprwy Lywydd, yesterday I laid the regulations to enable the new Warm Homes programme, which will not only respond to the current cost-of-living crisis and tackle emissions from the owner-occupier and private rental sector, but will promote sustainable Welsh materials, support Welsh skills and jobs and learn from the lessons of the past.
Welsh Government is leading by example in demonstrating a just transition, on which our consultation closed yesterday. With a £30 million budget allocation next year, we are supporting the vulnerable in society and moving homes to the clean heat of the future rather than propping up the fossil fuels of our past. Our approach will stimulate skills and supply chain development, and demonstrates our strong leadership on these important issues.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I wish to draw attention to some of the key features and changes in the new scheme. Householders who meet the eligibility criteria will receive a tailored package of support specific to their needs and their home. Low-carbon technologies will be prioritised where it makes sense to do so. Measures such as heat pumps and/or solar panels with battery storage are preferred where possible, making households more resilient to rising energy prices in the future and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
To ensure we target the least well off, a low-income threshold is being introduced, rather than relying solely on means-tested benefits. A household with an income lower than 60 per cent of the median average is classed as lower income for this scheme and we will not count any disability-related payments or benefits as income.
We are also moving to take a more joined-up approach with complementary schemes to maximise the benefits of these to Welsh citizens. Our advice service will have an important role in understanding each individual’s circumstances and supporting them to access the most appropriate scheme for their needs. We are also working with the Welsh Local Government Association to encourage local authorities to grow the energy company obligation, ECO Flex scheme, in Wales. This will ensure broad access to the scheme for households across Wales and that Welsh householders get their fair share of this money from Westminster.
This new programme is part of our work to develop a more coherent approach across all tenures and income levels to drive decarbonisation. This decade must be a decade of action on climate. We've already published our consultation on the heat strategy, which sets out the vision and priority areas for action. The Welsh housing quality standard 2023 is bold and progressive in setting ambitious targets to address decarbonisation in the social housing stock. It is also making a difference to the overall quality of people’s lives by ensuring that their homes are affordable to heat. What we learn from upgrading our 230,000 social homes will drive how we tackle the decarbonisation of Wales’s 1.2 million privately owned homes and reduce bills for householders across all sectors.
Dirprwy Lywydd, Welsh Government is doing everything we can to support a fairer, greener future for all. But the UK Government has a role to play, and we've repeatedly called on them to make the required changes. We have asked, for instance, for a social tariff for energy, we have asked them to address the injustices of standing charges and prepayment meters, and, of course, we have asked them to support Welsh ambitions for a transformed energy grid. In the light of all that, I am proud to today reflect on the achievements of this Government in making us look to a cleaner, brighter future. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood AC: As you indicated, Wales has some of the oldest and least thermally efficient housing stock compared with the UK and Europe. The Welsh Government estimates there are 614,000or 45per cent of households in Wales in fuel poverty and states that the Warm Homes programme is its primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty, which is primarily a social justice issue. The new scheme will be demand led and assist those who are least able to pay. However, despite assurances, the Welsh Government did not implement the programme prior to the winter of 2023. In fact, although the Welsh Government fuel poverty strategy stated that they would consult on revised arrangements for delivering measures for tackling fuel poverty beyond March 2023 between June and December 2021, the consultation was not launched until December 2021. The strategy also states that the Welsh Government will publish its response and implement its findings to start in April 2023, but didn't even respond until June 2023. Now we finally have a launch of the scheme, will the Minister state why there's been so much delay in getting to this point?
Now we know which bodies will be delivering the programme, who will be carrying out the monitoring and evaluation that will be key to the delivery of any programme?
Last week at National Energy Action's Wales fuel poverty conference, the director of Citizens Advice Cymru called for an awareness campaign for the new Warm Homes programme. We already know that take-up of certain Welsh Government grants and schemes isn't as high as it could be, so what plans do you have for an awareness campaign? How would it look in practical terms and how will you target the groups most at need, where, for example, the older people's commissioner's recent report 'Access Denied' reported that older people's rights to access information and services are being undermined by poor-quality or non-existent offline alternatives?
Care & Repair have stated they're grateful for the changes and updates that will be made to the Warm Homes programme, including eligibility based on low income, rather than means-tested benefits. However, they're concerned that homes in a poor state of disrepair will not benefit from the programme, as enabling works do not appear to be covered in the scheme, and many homes will not, therefore, benefit from works available through the new programme until the disrepair has been tackled. This means that older home owners, in particular on a low income, will continue to live in homes that are energy inefficient, cold and more expensive to heat, with significant ramifications for their health and well-being. How will you rectify this so the new programme is reaching as many people in need as possible?
The level of the budget threshold per property is still and will be a very important consideration. This will impact the scale and depth of support provided to each household. You state that eligibility will be based on a low-income threshold rather than relying solely on means-tested benefits. So, will the level of the low-income threshold take into account differences in household size and composition? Will it be after housing costs and how will it be allocated per property?
The Welsh Government has confirmed that the programme will have a budget of £35 million in 2024-25, the same as the previous year. The tender document published by the Welsh Government for the new programme outlined that a supplier would be expected to undertake work on 11,500 properties over seven years, equivalent to just over 1,600 properties each year. Based on these figures, it would take over 130 years to improve the energy efficiency of up to 217,700 lower income households currently estimated to be in fuel poverty in Wales, and many decades even with the programme's advice and referral services. How, therefore, do you respond to NEA Cymru's statement that, in future years, the programme's funding will need to significantly increase and that, quote, we have to spend to save, prioritising long-term investment to make fuel-poor homes much warmer, greener, healthier places to live, with energy bills that are permanently low?
Little is known about part 2 of the Warm Homes programme at this stage beyond that it will be an integrated approach across all tenures and income levels to drive decarbonisation. So, what detail can the Minister share with us on part 2 now?
Finally, I've previously called for the Welsh Government to set interim targets in their tackling fuel poverty 2021-25 plan, which does not yet meet the Welsh Government's statutory obligations to specify interim objectives to be achieved and target dates for achieving them. Citizens Advice Cymru states interim targets will ensure that the Welsh Government is accountable for progress, so what are your plans to introduce these targets now? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thanks, Mark. So, I'm just turning to the first issue. I did say in my statement that we had three tranches in the new programme, so just to reiterate, we've got advice and referral services provided by the Energy Saving Trust, so that's how people will get to hear about advice and referral into the programme where appropriate. We also have a whole series of advice programmes that my colleague the Minister for Social Justice runs, where everyone will be enabled to refer people to the Warm Homes programme, and, indeed, the energy advisory service, so if you're not eligible for the programme itself, you'll still get the energy advisory services. Then, as I said, installation services will be provided by British Gas, having gone through the competitive procurement process, and then the assurance services you asked about would be provided by Pennington Choices. So, we've done a little bit of learning from the previous programmes in understanding that one size for the whole thing doesn't really work, so we've got them split out into tranches quite deliberately to be able to pick that up. So, we'll be getting feedback from Pennington Choices as the programme rolls out. So, I think that's a better position than we were in in the previous programme.
In terms of the amount of money, obviously I'm not going to rehearse today the position the Welsh Government's budget is in, but we've done extremely well, I think, to protect some of these budgets. We're also doing—. This is very much not a 'one size fits all', so just in terms of the remarks you made about the fabric of the home, the whole point is that you'd get a survey of the home and its needs, and then we make sure that we retrofit accordingly—there's no point in putting an air source heat pump into a house that leaks like a sieve; it wouldn't have any effect. So, we'll be looking at insulation measures and so on—what else is needed in the home.
One of the things that isn't in my statement, to be fair, but which I've said many times on the floor of the Senedd, is we've been working with local authorities to look at energy efficiency in their areas, and particularly for particular streets and neighbourhoods. And I've said a number of times, and I'll just reiterate it now: if you were to have, for example, a terrace of homes where 80 per cent of the people fit the 60 per cent of median income threshold but the others didn't, we would still consider a scheme that would upgrade the whole of that street, because sometimes a neighbourhood scheme makes more sense in terms of what can be installed in energy efficiency and decarbonisation terms than doing individual households. So, I was very keen to make sure—. And in the conversation we had in Cabinet about this, which my colleague Jane Hutt and myself led, we had a long discussion about the dichotomy, if that's the right word, between just getting out to as many people as possible with one single measure, which is what the old scheme was doing, and actually making sure that we properly retrofit fewer houses—that's true—but in a way that was much more resilient for futureproofing. So, that's the way we've gone.
And then the other thing is on the decarbonisation: we've said that basically, if you've got a gas boiler fitted and it's possible to repair that to give it a longer life and make it more efficient, that would be part of the thing that could happen under the scheme, but where the boiler was not economically viable, then it would not be replaced by a fossil fuel heating source.
So, I think we've looked very carefully at a range of things here that allow us to hit a decent place in this journey, and it is a journey, you're quite right. We've also, of course, been rolling out in the social homes sector some of the optimised retrofit programmes, which I know Members are very familiar with, where we've test trialled tech that works on particular sorts of housing, trying to learn the lessons that Siân Gwenllian and others have brought up in the Chamber around where, you know, cavity wall insulation was perfectly great for many hundreds of homes, but, for some homes, caused real problems. So, we've tried to learn the lesson of not having a one-size-fits-all approach.
And then, the last thing I would say, Mark, is that not all of the levers are in our hands, of course. We do need a better energy grid, we do need a decarbonised energy grid that has much more even distribution of the energy supply and actually to decarboniseits sources. And without trying to make too much of a political point about it, I'm desperately sad about the announcements from the UK Government about building more gas-fired power stations, given the state of the climate. I mean, I just—. I mean, frankly, it just puts you into a place where—. I'm just shaking my head with disbelief, really, that any Government thinks that that's the way forward for an energy grid that gives us either security or certainty or climate resilience. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: It's extremely concerning that the Government failed to implement the Warm Homes programme before the end of November despite the pledges made, leaving many vulnerable households in the cold during a period of cold weather before the winter. I've noted the frightening statistics many times in the past, but almost 300 people die in Wales because of cold every year. This is shocking. Indeed, some 30 per cent of additional winter deaths are related to living in cold properties. Quite simply, cold homes kill, and those who have to live in cold homes have to suffer and cope with that cold.
Research by Public Health Wales shows that cold temperatures in the home are related to poor health outcomes, and living in temperatures below 18 degrees Celsius leads to damaging effects on people's health and is related to heart conditions and pulmonary conditions, sleeping disorders and poor health and physical performance generally. The impact on older people is particularly acute. Three quarters of additional winter deaths belong to that cohort of people over 75 years old.
Wales has the oldest and least energy-efficient housing stock in the UK and among the oldest in Europe. Indeed, my constituency of Dwyfor Meirionnydd has the oldest stock and is among the least energy-efficient in the whole of Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: So, while the support offered by the Welsh Government has been a welcome lifeline, the current situation is utterly unsustainable. A report by Care and Repair Cymru revealed that 96 per cent of households accessing Care and Repair's energy advice service were identified as living in fuel poverty. While there has been an increase in the state pension in line with inflation, older citizens still face higher utility expenses. This places additional stress on already vulnerable households, raising concerns about escalating debts and the struggle to afford necessities. So, I'd like to ask the Minister: what discussions has the Government had with UK Government to improve the take-up of the benefits that these people deserve and are allowed to access?
It's disappointing that, despite allocated funds, the Welsh Government delayed action, leaving those in severe fuel poverty, particularly those in the least energy-efficient homes, without support. We in Plaid Cymru urged the Welsh Government back in November to swiftly implement the Warm Homes programme to aid low-income households in improving their energy efficiency for winter. This urgency was also emphasised by the Wales expert group on the cost-of-living crisis, stressing the importance of launching the scheme promptly. However, the Government rejected these calls, resulting in concerning statistics. Thirty-one per cent of people went without heating in their homes in the three months leading to January 2024, and Citizens Advice saw a record number of people seeking fuel vouchers. Additionally, nearly a quarter of children in Wales expressed worries about being cold. So, can the Minister give an assurance to us today that there will be no further delays and that we won't see any further delays leading up to next winter?
And this, of course, is the context in which people were facing a delay in the programme this year: cold and inefficient homes kill, and they will have killed over the last winter, and the Warm Homes programme must do more than its predecessors to ensure improvements are made to the Welsh housing stock to make them cheaper and more efficient to heat, while ensuring people are supported. We need a sufficiently funded area-based, targeted programme that gets to grips with the issues of cold homes.
While it's positive that the programme is now being rolled out to support those in fuel poverty, we maintain that this action should have been taken much earlier, rather than waiting until after another challenging winter. So, let's be clear, though: fuel poverty is a multifaceted issue. We can reduce it by improving the housing stock that exists through installing low-carbon technologies, retrofitting, and we need to increase the scale and pace of delivering low-carbon social housing. After all, it's the wider housing crisis that has put huge pressure on households, including those on low incomes, who, more often than not, have to pay a poverty premium for their energy while facing rising rents, which force them to choose between heating, eating and keeping a roof over their heads. So, can the Minister confirm that each household that reaches the eligibility criteria will receive the assistance required without being hampered by further tests or appeal procedures? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, thanks, Mabon. I don't disagree at all with your analysis of what happens if you live in a cold home—obviously that's why we are putting the programme in place—and nor do I disagree with your analysis that many of our homes are the worst. In fact, I said so in my statement. I just want to say, though, at that point, in my original statement it said 'Welsh homes are'; it's 'many Welsh homes are', deliberately, because actually one of the things that we have done, and we've done it as part of the co-operation agreement, as you know, is that we've insisted that new-build homes in the social sector are low-carbon completely, but actually even in the private sector we've changed Part L of the building regulations to up the level of insulation and up the level of heat efficiency, and, actually, cooling efficiency, as it happens, so that new-build homes in Wales are much, much more efficient than they would have been otherwise—a measure that was wholeheartedly opposed by everybody on the opposite benches, because apparently cost is everything until you're in a debate of this sort. So, it is about getting the balance right so that we aren't storing up—I completely agree with you—that we aren't currently building, in my own famous phrase, the slums of the future, and that we are not giving a future Government in 10 years' time a retrofit nightmare the same as we currently have, because of the standards to which those homes were built—albeit many hundreds of years ago, in some cases. So, I accept all of that.
Just to say that we didn't have no programme running over the last winter, just to be clear. We did have Nest running, so actually a number of households did benefit from the Nest programme. Improvements in those households had an estimated average of £420 off their annual bill once those improvements had been put in. But if you think about the energy costs and the acceleration of energy costs over the last two years, people are facing thousands of pounds of costs, which we were not in a position to be able to mitigate. So, one of the big calls that we have from the UK Government, and I said it in my answer to Mark Isherwood, and actually even the Government has said it today in a statement, I saw, is that reform of the energy market would have a vast improvement on this, because actually being able to have affordable energy supplies, electricity supplies, in a decarbonised grid that was both efficient and effective, would make much more difference in your constituency, for example, than almost anything else that we can do. So, I just think it's important to keep the macro-level stuff in sight as well.
Having said that, I would have liked to have been able to roll this programme out quicker. It would take much longer than necessary to go through all of the procurement hurdles that we've had through the last several months, but anyway it's here now. It will start on 1 April. There will not be any further delays. It will then be rolled out and it will be well embedded before next winter. We have been quite lucky over this winter, because it's been one of the warmest on record. I'm really reluctant to say that, because that is not lucky; that is a measure of the climate change that we are facing. Each successive year over the last five has been warmer than the one before, and this has also been the wettest one, so we've had a whole series of other issues to look at.
In terms of eligibility, we want to make that as efficient as possible. That's why we've got the advisory services put into the procurement. It's deliberately there to assist people through. We don't want people put off. My colleague Jane Huttand I have been working with the advice agencies to make sure that there's no wrong door for this, that everybody is referred into it. We've also been working with councils for quite a while now to make sure that people who are, for example, eligible for council tax rebates are automatically referred into the programme, as they're very likely to be the same cohort of people, but I'm very happy to accept any suggestions from Members of the Senedd about anything else we can do to make sure that people are referred in efficiently to the programme. We do know that it's difficult to get hold of people, especially in the older age groups, who are pretty proud and perhaps haven't accepted help before, and you need help to get them to understand that this is an entitlement and it will very much benefit their lives.
The last thing I wanted to say on this as well is just—. We put the heat strategy out—I can't quite remember, just before Christmas, I think it was, it went out for consultation. So, this is part of an overarching strategy, as I said in answer to Mark Isherwood. So, we are doing a whole series of other things here around energy efficiency for other tenures as well.
And then, on the private sector, the long-term rented sector in particular, we have been trying to work with the UK Government who randomly said that they were going to put an energy performance certificate E threshold, if you remember, on it, and then took that away again. Because what we need is a mechanism to allow private sector landlords to decarbonise their homes and make them more energy efficient, without driving the rents up so that they're unaffordable. So, we have been very much pushing the leasing scheme Wales plan for this, where, if you give your home over to us for five years minimum, but 10 years better, 15 years optimal, we would actually assist you to bring that home right up to the highest standard whilst you receive the local housing allowance as rent all the way through that period. That is proving more and more attractive to private sector landlords, and we've been proactively targeting those in inner-city areas with very large houses that have multi-generational families living in them. So, in my constituency, for example, a number of the private rented sector homes are multi-generational, large homes that would be quite expensive to retrofit without this kind of scheme.
So, we have been trying to get it out as much as possible, if I can say that to you, and I'm very pleased that we've done a lot of lessons-learned exercises for this so that we don’t repeat some of the scheme problems that we had with Arbed, for example, that Members will be familiar with.

Jenny Rathbone AC: There's a great deal to be applauded from your statement, Minister. I'm very pleased to see that there will be no wrong door, as you've just said, that we're going to use Welsh materials where they're available, and we're going to focus on the worst first.
We also, as you say, need to get local authorities on board. I was depressed to hear an officer responsible for our schools' premises say that solar tiles are untested technology, which, I'm afraid, indicates that they don't get out much talking to the industry.
I also applaud your three-pronged procurement, because I think that will give us a much better way of testing the quality of the advice, the quality of the installation, and also the assurance to be provided by this other agency.
I just wanted to ask about your preferred provider of British Gas, because, obviously, the name indicates that they know more about a fossil fuel. How did the Welsh Government satisfy itself that British Gas has the capacity and the capability to install the full range of low-carbon, renewable energy solutions to meet the particular needs of individual fuel-poor households, because I completely agree that this is absolutely crucial to making people far less vulnerable to the rise and rise in energy prices based on gas?

Julie James AC: Yes, that's an interesting point, isn't it? So, just to be clear, the procurement was very specific about installing the right tech in the right home, and you had to have capability to install the right tech in the right home, you had to understand and demonstrate your understanding of the tech results, if you like, that we have. We have plenty—. If you want to refer the officer of the local authority to me, Jenny, I can point them to plenty of evidence on the solar panel point. But not every home is okay for solar panels, particularly if you need battery technology, and it depends where you are in the world et cetera. It will work to some extent in most homes, but it is not the most efficient thing for some homes. Some homes would be far better off with air or ground-source heat pumps, for example, or better efficiency in a number of other areas. And even with solar panels, of course, some of them are water heating and some of them are battery sourcedand so on. So, I can assure you that a vigorous assessment was done of being able to apply the right tech at the right time. In fact, actually, companies like British Gas, who also supply electricity—the name is misleading, shall we say, for that point—of course also need to retrofit their own skilled workforce because there will be less and less demand for gas fitters, and more and more demand for people who can fit other things. So, this also assists with us to reskill an existing workforce in Wales. So, I'm quite pleased with that, and a vigorous assessment of all of that was gone through, and that's partly why it's taken quite so long to get where we are.
But I am very pleased that we've split the contract out in the way that we have, not least because we wanted people to be able to receive impartial advice on what was suitable, not from the people who are fitting it, so that there's no assumption of an in-built biasfor a particulartype of tech, for example. So, I'm very pleased with that and I think we'll see a step change in the way that we do that. This new programme also allows more than one visit. So, with the old Nest programme, if you'd had a chance at Nest, then that was it, you were not able to retrofit again, if you like, so we've overcome that for this programme as well, and then I'm more particularly pleased with the neighbourhood approach that we have in some areas.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, after very frustrating and very damaging delays for the 45 per cent of Welsh families in fuel poverty, here's confirmation that the Warm Homes programme will at last be operational, and that, of course, is to be welcomed. This is the Government's main mechanism to tackle fuel poverty. The aim of the Welsh Government's plan, 'Tackling fuel poverty 2021 to 2035', is to ensure that the number of households living in fuel poverty falls to 5 per cent, but the figures show that we are a long way from reaching that mark.
You have a statutory obligation to set interim targets in the scheme, but despite the many calls from Plaid Cymru, Senedd committees and Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru, there have been no interim targets set. Minister, they're vital in order to review the effectiveness of the strategy and to map out vital progress towards the 2035 targets. So, once again, Minister, will you act on this, and support the obvious need to set interim targets in the tackling fuel poverty strategy, because without these milestones, we're unlikely to generate the ongoing actions needed to tackle our fuel poverty crisis?

Julie James AC: Thanks, Sioned. I don't want to just say 'no' to that, because I understand exactly where you're coming from, but I'm a little bit ambivalent about interim targets at this point in the programme, if I'm honest. So, what we'd very much like to see is the first year of action of the programme before we can really see—. I, for example, have absolutely no idea at all how many of the homes that will benefit would have an upgraded, more efficient, repairable gas boiler in them or need a more fundamental refit. I've already referenced a conversation we had in Cabinet about the difficult balance between just getting out to as many people as possible with a small intervention and actually making homes more resilient in the longer term. So, I don't quite know how I would set the interim targets; I don't quite know what we're looking at. So, we could probably come up with things that were indicative, but I'm not sure that they'd be particularly instructive in terms of how the programme's rolling out.
So, I would say that the best thing to do—and I'm very happy to promise this, and that might be for a successor Minister, given where we are in the Government cycle—but I'm very happy to look at that again after a year of the programme and then we'd have a much better database for what we're actually looking at. We've also got the social landlords doing a three-year housing stock survey, which will give us a much better idea on the social stock side, and we've also got the energy efficiency surveys rolling out across local authorities. So, we will then have much better data to be able to set smart targets, as they're called, so ones that are much more likely to be achievable and stretching, because at the moment it would be a little random. So, I don't want to say 'no' to what you're asking me, but at the same time, I don't want to say 'absolutely', because I'm not yet in a position to be able to do that, but I think, within a short period of time, we will be in a position to do that, and then I would be very happy to do so.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: International Women’s Day

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on International Women's Day. I call on the Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. International Women's Day is a day to celebrate the achievements of women and girls everywhere, a day to reflect upon the many women who have influenced and inspired us. Importantly, it is also a time to highlight the challenges that women and girls still face.

Hannah Blythyn AC: This year's theme is 'Inspire inclusion', and on International Women's Day itself I was pleased to be able to take part in a Women's Equality Network Wales cafe event, focused on this and the UN theme this year, 'Invest in women: accelerate progress'.
It should go without saying that to invest in women is to accelerate progress and that when women benefit, we all benefit. In this Siambr, we have committed to both aspire to and inspire inclusion, and our record on the representation of women in the Senedd is one we can be proud of. It not only changes the face of our politics, but the focus of it too; it's good for policy making and can lead to better decision making.

Hannah Blythyn AC: But we cannot be complacent and we must continue to provide a platform for women to progress in political life. That's one of the reasons why the Welsh Government supports the Equal Power Equal Voice programme, which aims to increase diversity of representation in public and political life in Wales, with people gaining roles as board members, trustees, school governors, and being successful in local elections.
Sadly, we still hear the all too inevitable cries about why we need and why we mark International Women’s Day. Let's be clear: whilst violence against women and girls, toxic cultures, sexism, misogyny and imbalances of power remain an all too common everyday occurrence, the need to campaign and challenge remains. This can and must change. Such behaviours have no place in any part of society, and we all have a responsibility to play our part and also to get our own house in order. To step up and speak out does make a difference.
I want to thank Johanna Robinson, the national adviser for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, for recently sharing her story. Johanna’s bravery and courage will help and encourage others to come forward, to get support and to bring perpetrators to justice. So, we pay tribute to all women who speak out and share about the abuse and mistreatment they have experienced and witnessed, and whether they realise it or not, these women will be forging the path for a better future for women and girls everywhere.
Inspiring inclusion in our children helps us to get it right from the start. Our focus on healthy relationships, equality and inclusivity is at the heart of our relationship and sexuality education for all learners. Online safety is an ever-evolving and complex issue, and educating young people on how to safely engage with social media is a cross-curricular issue. Diprwy Lywydd, I recently visited Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhymni to see their work on period dignity. I was really inspired by the pupils and their willingness to articulately talk openly about periods. They really are embodying this year’s theme and showing that our work on period dignity is having an impact, like increasing participation in school and sport.
Alongside this, we continue to provide support for girls and young women into science, technology, engineering and maths. In November, Anna Petrusenko, from Gower College, won the Engineering Education Scheme Wales student of the year award, and I'm sure Anna will go on to have a successful STEM career here in Wales.
We're also inspiring inclusion in the workplace through our support for childcare and fair work. Flexible, affordable childcare provision is central to supporting parents, to improve income through work or by accessing education and training. We are committed to making Wales a fair work nation, one that ensures that women and, indeed, all workers, have equal opportunity in accessing fair work, remaining in work and progressing in work.
We continue to promote the benefits that an equal, diverse and inclusive workforce can bring for both individuals and businesses. The social enterprise Elite Clothing Solutions, based in Ebbw Vale, is putting the Welsh Government’s priorities into practice by giving opportunities to enable inclusive employment for disabled and disadvantaged people, older workers, young people and lone parents. Their efforts led them to win the Wales Business Awards' diversity and inclusion award last year.
Women across Wales are making their mark as leaders. Last year, Natasha Hirst became the first disabled president of the National Union of Journalists. Natasha is well known to many of us in the Siambr andis also the chair of Disability Arts Cymru, a member of the Welsh Government’s disability rights taskforce, and, of course, a committed trade union and equality activist.
At the Ethnic Minority Welsh Women Achievement Association awards, two Welsh Government staff received awards for leadership—Nashima Begum and Ayanna Mathurine—both of whom worked on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and there are so many more that we could mention, but sadly don't have time to today.
In healthcare, there are changes taking place that foster inclusion. We have employed a midwife to lead on equality, diversity and inclusion issues within maternity and neonatal policy, which is helping to eliminate some of the disparities experienced by black, Asian and minority ethnic women through the perinatal period. But, as always, there is more to do.
Dirprwy Lywydd, women were fundamental to the foundations of devolution and are the backbone of our economy. When women have decent and dignified work, our communities, our economy and our country benefit. This lunch time, I was proud to support a Wales TUC International Women’s Day event, 'Celebrating women in our trade union movement’, recognising the role that trade unions are playing in empowering women, both in workplaces and in Wales.
It’s more than a century since the Representation of the People Act 1918, over half a century since the Ford Dagenham women took the industrial action that led to the Equal Pay Act 1970, and a quarter of a century since the dawn of devolution. We're here in no small part because of the women that paved the way before us, yet there is still a way to go.
We are not here, though, to make up the numbers, but because we have a huge contribution to make to our workplaces, our communities and our country. When women’s voices are central to devolved politics, our democracy is better for it, so let’s all commit to continuing to play our part to inspire inclusion in all walks of life.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. As you noted, Friday 8 March, last week, marked International Women's Day 2024, a day in which we pay tribute to women from all across the world who are ambassadors for our rights and role models for the next generation, as well as those throughout history who have fought for us to have these rights. International Women's Day reminds us not only that we have come a long way, but also that there is still far to go in ensuring women from all ages, all backgrounds, all races, all religions have equal opportunities and treatment in every scenario that we may face.
I know just earlier this year, the Senedd's very own Equality and Social Justice Committee published a report referring to gender-based violence as an 'epidemic', and looked at the harsh reality that sexism and misogyny are not just isolated incidents, but are systematic and recurrent issues deep rooted within the structure of society itself. And this is disappointingly backed up with estimates published by the World Health Organization that indicated that, globally, around one in three women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime. That's 30 per cent of women across the world.
This shocking and abhorrent statistic also goes alongside research within the crime survey for England and Wales, which estimated that, in the year ending March 2020, 1.6 million women between the ages of 16 and 74 experienced domestic abuse. That's 7 per cent of the UK's female population, and a further 5 per cent have experienced stalking, and not only is this physical abuse, but emotional as well. It has a long-lasting, devastating impact on victims for the rest of their lives, and we must continue collectively to do everything in our power to get these figures down, so that women and girls feel safe on our streets here in Wales, in their homes and also places of work.So, with this in mind, Deputy Minister, what work has been done since the release of the report's findings to combat gender-based violence and to help diminish the systematic sexism that's built into our society?
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you, Deputy Minister, and also the Minister, and to pay tribute to the work that you've done, campaigning on behalf of women who are victims of domestic violence and for supporting equal opportunities for women and girls right from the early stages of schools all the way to their adult life. Last week, I met with many of these young women, alongside both of you as well, from schools across south-east Wales at our very own Welsh Parliament International Women's Day celebrations. I was on a table with a group of young women from Cardiff West Community High School, who engaged in a brilliant discussion on breaking down barriers and stigma around girls getting into roles of leadership, including the political industry.
These young women, also known, as I call them, as 'the next generation', were an inspiration, and I hope that they went away, as I did, feeling inspired and knowing that they're capable of doing and achieving anything that they put their hearts and minds to. So, for this International Women's Day 2024 I hope that we collectively not only empower the next generation to do whatever it is they wish and help them to raise awareness and protect women of all ages and backgrounds against violence and domestic abuse, but I hope that we all continue to educate—educate our fathers, our brothers and our sons, so that the next generation of men grow up in a world where women are thought of as equals from the get go, and that instead of attempting to reverse the systematic misogyny already built into our society, we will be championing and celebrating the fact that the work of women in the generations from the past has meant that our sisters, daughters, mothers and friends do not have to be afraid for their safety simply because they're a woman.
So, finally, Deputy Minister, what is the Welsh Government going to be doing to educate all pupils so that, right from the beginning, the next generation understand the importance of equal opportunities and that discrimination of any form is simply going to be unacceptable? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Can I thank Natasha Asghar and actually thank you for everything that I know you do as a role model for young women in communities across Wales as well? I think if I answer first around the work around—. You talked about the link, sadly, between misogyny and sexism and then perpetrators of violence against women as well. We know that that sort of behaviour and sexual harassment are part of that wider disturbing culture of violence against women. You're right that we're only going to address the root cause of those behaviours if we address sexism and misogyny in every part of society, including the workplace. I think, for us as a Government, it's about using the levers we do have to make a difference, and to achieve some meaningful change.
Our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy is actually being delivered through a blueprint approach, so it brings together all those partners across the public, private and specialist sectors in Wales, recognising this is not a job for one agency or one organisation. We're only going to achieve that change, because it's a huge cultural change as well, with that collective action. And like you said, and like I said in my opening remarks, it starts at the beginning, doesn't it? It starts in school. Our new inclusive relationships and sexuality education has a role to play in that, and also the inclusive curriculum around active citizenship and the broad range of resources there to support learners regarding online safety. That’s obviously an evolving situation as well.
To finish my answer to you on a positive, you’re right that International Women’s Day is a time to reflect on the history, and the women that came before us and paved the way, but also to try and move forward and support the next generation. It was really good to be at the International Women’s Day event with you, with Jane Hutt, and I believe Sioned Williams was there at the round-table as well, and to listen. It worked out really well for me, because I actually had somebody who was taking part in the Equal Power Equal Voice programme, who's actually a mentee to one of the Welsh Government officials. I think they'd been at an event that Heledd Fychan and I spoke about, and then they came in for the day. But actually, it was really good, having somebody who was part of that programme as part of that discussion with those young women—I think I was with someone from Fitzalan High School, talking about the things that they wanted to see, and the barriers. I think they went away deciding they were going to have their own International Women’s Day event at their school next year. They’re going to emulate the panel that they’d seen there, because they’d enjoyed it and valued it so much.

Sioned Williams AS: It's good to hear you mention Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhymni, my old school. It's wonderful to know that there is a new generation of strong women in the vanguard there.

Sioned Williams AS: I'm sure many of us spent International Women’s Day speaking about the need for gender equality, celebrating the achievements of women, thanking our sisters who have inspired or supported us. I was glad to discuss, as you referenced, with young women from Ysgol Plasmawr who came to the Senedd the matters they were concerned about as young Welsh women—the unacceptable gender pay gap, the fact that they can’t get hold of the right sports equipment as it’s designed for men, that our women’s national teams don’t, in their view, have parity of esteem with the men’s. They also felt the achievements of women were still not as widely known as men’s, and it was remarked upon that the leaders of the three largest political parties in Wales, including my own, are men.
It’s great to see this statement to mark International Women’s Day is being made on this historic day for Welsh politics—the same day as the introduction of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill, which will bring in gender quotas to ensure women are better represented in this Senedd. We can ensure women are represented and that the policies we make reduce inequality by transforming the systems from which so many injustices faced by women stem. Plaid Cymru want to see a fair Wales based on equality of outcome, not just equality of opportunity.
However, we as a nation still have a long way to go towards a gender-equal nation that is free of bias, stereotypes and discrimination, and there has to be constant challenge in our culture and practice, in our institutions and services. The reforms need to be meaningful, the action radical, the changes apparent. To achieve a truly gender-equal Wales, we have to focus on the most marginalised women first—the women in society who face the greatest barriers and the most disadvantaged—and the compound effect of the intersection between gender inequality and other socioeconomic inequalities, which is clear in every report we read. Study after study tells us that women in Wales are at greater risk of poverty and that the cost-of-living crisis is disproportionately impacting women, particularly those from an ethnic minority background and disabled women.
In order to properly tackle gender inequality, the Welsh Government must fully commit to implementing gender budgeting, as suggested in the gender equality review. We welcome the progress made to date, but it remains too slow, and must be implemented to ensure policy does not disproportionately impact women. I’d like an update, therefore, on these issues, please, Deputy Minister, and a commitment that the impact of policies must not only be identified but acted upon. In our scrutiny work, the Equality and Social Justice Committee heard an admission from the Government that women would be disproportionately impacted by many decisions taken, but they were taken anyway. So do you agree, Minister, this cannot be allowed to continue if the Government is truly committed to gender equality?
We must also do more to tackle the misogyny and violence against women that we are seeing within public services, especially in light of the investigation that found a sexist and misogynist culture in the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and the recent report into the Metropolitan police's handling of the Sarah Everard case. Do you agree we must never tolerate any member of public services keeping their jobs despite allegations that they had sexually harassed and abused women, or were overseeing this culture, or allowed to retire or move to other posts while doing so?
Many women have expressed deep distaste and despair seeing politicians who will not call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza celebrating progress on women's rights in Wales and the UK last week while an estimated 9,000 women have reportedly been killed by Israeli forces in Gaza. While we were thanking and thinking of our mothers this Sunday, an estimated 37 mothers were killed in Gaza. Some 60,000 pregnant women are suffering from dehydration and malnutrition there, and there's no period dignity in Gaza, no access to toilets, pads or clean water. As I highlighted in my recent debate on Wales's role in calling for global peace, led by Welsh women, such as those who, a century ago, spoke truth to power with their peace petition to the US—my great grandmother, a woman who lived in poverty, among them—the Government has much to do in terms of our role internationally in promoting the rights of women and girls. The discourse of women's rights cannot be apart from the fact of the military violence in Gaza. I am in this place because my rights as a woman were hard won. It is my duty as a woman in this place to raise my voice against that violence. We must do more to support our sisters in Gaza, and use our voice as a nation to condemn this horrific war. Are you prepared, Minister, to add the Welsh Government's voice to the international calls for an immediate ceasefire and an end to the mass suffering of Palestinian women and girls?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Sioned Williams for her contribution. I know there's always much we have in common, even if it's just the things that make us equally angry and determined to achieve change. I didn't realise that Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhymni was your old school. And I think it was Delyth Jewell's as well. [Interruption.] That was perfect timing, Delyth. A lot of the work you find, as politicians, and as members of Government, is incredibly challenging—it's worth while, but it's challenging—and you have to keep driving that change, in the face of adversity, and challenge coming back, which isn't always scrutiny, but it's more like, 'We don't want change'. But to go on those school visits such as that really reminds us of why we are doing this. And just to see those young women, how articulate and confident they were, and just how empowered they felt by being able to—. It had been led by their voices. They had said what they needed, and they'd shaped what that support looked like within their school, and then they were really keen to share that with others schools, about what they were doing in the area, and take it from there as well. It really was an inspiring visit.
On the other side of that, we know that austerity and the cost of living hits those least able to bear the burden hardest. You talked about gender budgeting, and we have conducted gender budgeting pilots to shape an understanding of how that work can be embedded and expanded. That work is continuing to get a better understanding of that gender budget and how that can become the norm, rather than the exception. We're doing that with links with a range of internal and external colleagues who are interested in this work. For me, the next step with that is not just about gender budgeting, it's seeing things through a gender lens, isn't it? Because certain decisions and certain policies impact on women more than men—I don't mean just negatively, but, actually, you can make decisions in a certain way that better improves the outcomes of women. I think there is work in the future, working with the committee, and across Government, in terms of, actually, how we further put those structures in place to make sure we do see things in that way.
One of the things I would say, and one of the reasons why you do see things that way—and it goes back to how you started—is that, actually, having more women taking those decisions, not just in this Siambr, not just in Government, but within the civil service, within those different organisations that come together through our social partnership arrangements—. Actually, that's why we say people are experts by experience—workers in social partnership, but women, in particular, too. So, I think there's more that we can do and lessons that we can learn on that. I absolutely agree with you that we have a role to play in terms of not just—. People fought hard for us to be here, and we definitely don't take that for granted, and we will fight hard for others, whether that is some of the horrific things we are seeing in Gaza at the moment, but also here at home in terms of making sure the next generation has a better future than us.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Deputy Minister, thank you for your statement. International Women's Day is that annual occasion to rightly mark and celebrate the achievements of women and girls everywhere across the globe, and it allows us to focus in and recognise that many women and girls, now more than ever, are suffering disproportionately in global conflicts, from war, from displacement and from sexual violence.
But it's what happens every day that counts as well, and there are too many women and girls in the world today who do not have access to basic human rights or education, and it is right that we come together and say that we should all be working towards equal representation for women across all of our Parliaments, equal pay and parental leave, and, also, the ending of violence against women and girls. I also welcome the forthcoming gender quota legislation anticipated in this place.
I was honoured to represent the Senedd, along with my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, last week at the tenth British Islands and Mediterranean Region Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians conference, entitled 'Resilient women: moulding girls into strong women', and, as vice-chair of the CWP steering committee, to accept the common development plan for this region. It was an opportunity for female parliamentarians across the Commonwealth region to discuss the advancements and challenges that we share, faced by women and girls in our respective countries and legislatures. It is right that equal pay, equal parental leave, equal representation and ending violence against women are rung out loud and clear.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You do need to ask your question now.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Deputy Minister, in your statement you rightly highlight that women are fundamental to the foundations of devolution and the backbone of our economy. So, what do you feel are the biggest challenges for women and girls in the short, medium and long term in twenty-first century Wales, and do you agree with me that change must continue at pace?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I'm glad Rhianon Passmore got to a really simple and straightforward question at the end about the short, medium and long-term solutions. [Laughter.] But I can say categorically that I absolutely agree with you that we need to proceed at pace. Like I said, we cannot be complacent. We should rightly use International Women's Day to reflect on the progress that has been made and to reflect on people who have made a huge contribution, but also recognise that there are, like you say, in the short term challenges around things like the cost of living, and in the longer term ending violence against women and making sure that in the longer, longer term we should be campaigning so that we don't need to do things like we do now. I remember when I was younger, we used to campaign for equality campaigns, and your ultimate goal should be to campaign yourself out of existence; it's about not being needed any more. So, I think it's to not give up, to keep going and to know that even on the darkest days we've overcome so much before and we can overcome so much again.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I want to start by expressing solidarity with the international battle for gender equality. I am firmly of the view that there is a responsibility for men to be allies. Indeed, as a loving father to two of the best girls I've ever seen, they have the right to the same opportunities in life as their brothers have. But, of course, gender inequality is particularly clear in health, where health outcomes continue to have an influence on gender-based inequalities. This month, we recognise Endometriosis Action Month, and this condition clearly shows that women are being let down by the system. Indeed, COVID has demonstrated to us that there were health inequalities between men and women when it came to COVID and the pandemic.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Perinatal mental health is another area where there is a clear need to establish more effective support structures, particularly since none of the seven perinatal mental health services in Wales fully meets national type 1 College Centre for Quality Improvement standards. So, my question is this: as we recognise International Women's Day, it's disappointing that we've so far seen little progress on the women's health plan. What action is the Deputy Minister taking to work with the health Minister to ensure that the women's health plan will be coming to the fore as soon as possible?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Mabon ap Gwynfor. Can I welcome your commitment as both an ally and an advocate, with a reminder that, actually, there is a responsibility on all of us, not just women, as well? I can reflect back on growing up with my own father, who encouraged me by saying, 'You can do anything you want to do'. I remember him actually saying to me that there was no such thing as boys' and girls' toys. I think that was partly because he wanted to play with cars and Lego with me and I did have a preference for that anyway. But, yes, it's the small things that you can do, isn't it, during childhood, that do make a big impact as well.
But turning to the more substantive point that you made, addressing the existing inequalities in the way that women access and experience healthcare in Wales is vital if we're going to get to where we need to be—that gender-equal Wales. I know that on Friday my colleague the Minister for Health and Social Services issued a written statement to Members of the Senedd providing an update about the progress being made to improve women's and girls' healthcare in Wales, including the development of a women's health plan by the Welsh NHS. But I absolutely recognise the need to build on that and the commitment to work together to make that happen. And that goes from access to services but also the way in which you're perhaps dealt with when you have those servicestoo, and the language that's used and the way people are supported as well. So, there's a whole package of work, but, like I said, work has been done, but obviouslythere's a lot more to do to build on that as well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Buffy Williams.

Buffy Williams AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And diolch to the Deputy Minister for today's statement. I remember learning about the suffragettes in primary school and thinking how brave and strong those women must have been to fight for what they believed in. It's only right that we have a day to celebrate all that they have achieved and all that women around the world continue to achieve. Every single one of us will have been inspired by a woman in our lives, whether it be a family member, a friend, a community member or a celebrity. Women influence our lives every day. In Wales, more often than not, women are our carers when we get sick, they're our educators preparing us for our future careers, and they're our supporters across charities when we need a helping hand.
I'm sure that colleagues from across the Chamber will be excited to know that the remarkable Amanda Blanc, chief executive of Aviva, will be at the Senedd tomorrow evening, as part of International Women's Day celebrations. Amanda was born and raised in Treherbert in Rhondda, attended Treorchy Comprehensive School and has since been appointed a Dame for services to business, net zero and gender equality. Will the Deputy Minister join me in celebrating the achievements of women across our communities, our everyday heroes, as well as the Amanda Blancs of this world, each with their own roleto play and contribution to make? I'd also like to pay tribute to an amazing woman who inspired me: my own mother. No longer with us but still inspiring me every day.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Buffy, for that really poignant contribution. I'm sure your mum was incredibly proud of you as well. And you're right that, absolutely, I join you in celebrating the achievements of women across our communities—the everyday heroes, as you say. We've got inspirational women all around us and they might not always make the headlines, but they're certainly lifelines in our communities right across the country. So, yes, absolutely, I agree with you in celebrating them and the roles that they play. You mentioned learning about the suffragettes in primary school and it kind of got me thinking about the role that popular culture plays too in educating about that really important history that we should never take for granted and those women that fought for what we see as such a simple, straightforward right these days, but was so hard for them. The thing that's struck me, I remember, once—confession time—my favourite film, growing up, was Mary Poppins, and I just remember, I've got it in my head now, the Sister Suffragette song from Mary Poppins, but I'm a tone deaf Welsh person, so I'm not going to start singing, but the line was something like:
'soldiers in petticoats / And dauntless crusaders for women's votes'.
And I don't want to insult the male allies, but they do go on to say:
'Though we adore men individually / We agree that as a group they're rather stupid'.
But I think, in that way, I notice that—. You know, very recently, it was the passing of Glynis Johns, wasn't it, that played Mrs Banks in the original Mary Poppins film. It just shows the role that has played, because that was etched on my memory as a child, but then also, as I got older and worked in the trade union movement, seeing it through a different lens—. At the Durham miners' gala, there was a one-woman play, which actually featured the northern working-class perspective on the suffragette movement, which really was an eye-opener, but it gives you that holistic view of our history and the women that we might not have heard of before, but we need to keep celebrating and shining a spotlight on so that we continue to build on their legacy.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Deputy Minister.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And it was Glynis Johns who played the mother.

6. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: Regional Integration Fund

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6: a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services—regional integration fund. And I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to bring the Senedd up to date on the positive progress being made here in Wales in bringing the health and social care systems closer together and to reflect our ambition to increase the scale and pace of change as we move forward. Integration has been a long-term priority for this Government, and it was further highlighted in our 2021 co-operation agreement with our Plaid Cymru colleagues. And although it has taken time, it's clear that our journey towards integrating our health and social care services is well under way.
There is still a lot more work to do, but I'm proud of the actions that we have taken, which have been rooted in partnership and in collaboration, and have been sensitive and responsive to local conditions. Of course, the progress made to date is in no small part down to the high level of co-operation between our health and social care sectors, and credit should be given to all those who have both led and supported the journey to this point.
Here in Wales we have some unique conditions that have enabled our progress, including key legislation and policy in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and in 'A Healthier Wales', dedicated resources in the £146 million regional integration fund and the £70 million integration and rebalancing capital fund, and a committed health and social care sector that is actively building positive working relationships and supporting people to achieve what matters to them.
Our seven regional partnership boards, established under the Act, are now embedded as a key feature of the health and social care landscape, and are recognised as the space in which partners come together to create understanding and jointly plan our health and care services in the community. The benefits of these partnership arrangements were clearly felt during the COVID-19 and in subsequent winter responses. RPBs are also strengthening the role the third sector plays in our health and care systems, ensuring they're enabled to take an active role in our partnership arrangements and promoting investment in them. Just this last year, we've invested over £24.5 million of the RIF directly into services provided by the third sector.
The RIF programme, which is building six national models of integrated care, continues to be a key means to learn about what works for people in helping them to maintain good health and well-being and to live well at or as close to home as possible. I'm pleased to be able to share some excellent examples of good practices being developed through the regional integration fund.
Thirty per cent of the RIF, £34 million, is funding projects that focus on prevention and community co-ordination. In Gwenttheir Connected Communities programme is providing community support via their information, advice and assistance teams and community connectors. This project, during 2022-23, assisted 25,276 people, whether through early help or more intensive targeted support. Their falls response service responded to 902 incidents, with 681 people supported to remain at home with locally based support, crucially avoiding further call-out and hospital admission. Powys also operates a region-wide programme of community asset support.
Twenty per cent, over £24 million, of the RIF is providing complex care closer to home for people. Cardiff and the Vale’s care crisis and home-based intermediate care project is an excellent example of how important step-down facilities can be in aiding ongoing recovery. Ninety-five per cent of people supported reported improvement in mobility issues and anxiety levels and increased participation within their communities.
West Glamorgan is directing significant attention on promoting good emotional health and well-being for unpaid carers through community-based counselling and well-being support, with 1,486 unpaid carers receiving a short break last year.
While recently in north Wales, I enjoyed a visit to GISDA in Caernarfon, which hosts a central and vibrant hub to support young people with emotional health and well-being needs, as well as two other hubs across Gwynedd. Here, young people are provided with a range of activities to support their needs, from arts and craft sessions to workshops on managing debt,housing issues and coping strategies. Importantly, the hub highlights the importance of a single point of access to support.
Over the last year, as health and social care Ministers, we have had a sharpened focus on pathways of care delays, and significant effort has been invested to develop a shared system and data set that more accurately record where the delays are in the system and why they are occurring. This in turn has enabled delivery partners to target their efforts more precisely in addressing system blockages. Since February 2023, we’ve rolled out the trusted assessor models across Wales, and we’ve seen a 76 per cent increase in trusted assessor capacity within our hospitals, which has assisted with our 23 per cent reduction in delays due to assessments. This important work is now being reported to and overseen by the cross-sector care action committee that Ministers have established.
A good example of a RIF-funded project that has helped to improve the flow out of hospital is the hospital discharge project in Cwm Taf Morgannwg. Here, they’ve taken a more proactive approach to hospital discharge, identifying those people most at risk of becoming stuck within secondary care, which of course brings the detrimental impact on their ability to return to independent living, due to deconditioning. In the region, 88 people were supported to move back home last year and 635 people were supported to live independently, avoiding unnecessary readmission.
We’re also channelling capital funds through our regional partnership boards to support the integration of health and social care in the community. Our £70 million integration and rebalancing capital fund is directly investing in the development of integrated health and social care hubs that can further help people to access the information, advice, care and support they might need within their own community. To date, 20 projects have been awarded funding under the scheme, totalling £65 million, including the 19 Hills development in Newport, due to be completed early 2025, and the Sunnyside health and well-being centre in Bridgend, a prime example of a partnership collaboration between the health board and Linc Cymru. I recently visited the site for Croes Atti Residential Home in Flint, where groundworks have already commenced and where I was taken through a visualisation of what will be an excellent resource for older people and those living with dementia. I look forward to seeing how all the hubs develop.
My officials are in the process of establishing a cross-sector leadership group that will take this important work forward to the next phase, aligning a wide range of existing programmes and activity, such as the RIF, the strategic primary care programme and the urgent and emergency six-goals programme, to this agenda. And while we intend to build an integrated system for all populations, in this next phase we will have a specific focus on ensuring we build a system that is attuned to the specific needs of older people with complex needs and frailty. I do feel confident that we have the strong foundations from which we can accelerate our journey towards building an integrated community care system for the people of Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister. The accident and emergencywaiting times are of course the biggest issue blighting the national health service in Wales, and this is something I’m all too familiar with, having Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in my constituency. So, bringing the NHS and social care closer together is key to getting patients home quicker, which in turn will free up time and resources for clinicians to see more people more quickly at the front door of the hospital. This is why regional partnership boards are tasked with spending almost £150 million on innovative projects that bridge the gap between health and social care, and this is a goal that I support. But it is incumbent on me to raise concerns with regard to the success of the fund so far. We hear from people on the ground that they find themselves under pressure to transform services while grappling with staffing shortages and financial instability. The Royal College of Physicians have said that regional partnership boards find themselves firefighting with their funding increasingly used to support winter planning.
I would also be interested to know how decisions are made with regard to the allocation of the regional integration fund, with regional partnership boards, as of last year, committing 60 per cent of their regional integration fund to models of care that provide greater community capacity. Clearly, models of care that provide this are the priority, but I don’t think we are seeing the improvements in this area that we should be seeing, given that we are two years on from the launch of the fund.
The latest Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report highlighted that failures in social care are still causing bottlenecks in hospitals, which means patients fit to be discharged are still occupying valuable bed space in hospital wards. We also know that A&E waiting times are still on the rise, unfortunately, particularly in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Two-year waiting lists are still at over 24,000 in Wales; this does not support claims that closer integration between the health service and social care has been successful. I would appreciate it, therefore, if the Deputy Minister could outline the reason for the slow progress on creating greater community capacity, given the level of funding. I would also be grateful if the Minister could outline how successful the regional integration fund has been with regard to preventative care and community co-ordination.
The Welsh Government's own 'Wellbeing of Wales: 2023' report, published in September of last year, shows that there was no significant change in most lifestyle behaviours between 2021 and 2022, and 2022 and 2023, where there was also a decrease in life expectancy for the most recent period available. I would argue that this demonstrates that more attention should be paid to preventative care and the promotion of healthy lifestyles. This is something that the Welsh Government has committed itself to, but the data demonstrates that we are moving backwards on this front.
I'd also like to reiterate, like I said last year, that, if the regional integration fund is successful, this negates the need for a national care service. If, by 2027, the regional integration fund has successfully integrated the health service with social care, this would make a national care service both a duplication of efforts and a waste of taxpayers' money. I would also like to query the fact that the scheme is set to expire in March 2027, and the Deputy Minister confirmed in December that the newly agreed three-staged implementation process spans a 10-year period, which would mean that the implementation process will only be in stage 2 by the time when the regional implementation fund scheme expires, with stage 3, the national care service for Wales, not set to commence until 2029. So, what action will be taken in the intermediate period regarding the quality and quantity of the sorts of programmes that the regional integration fund was set up to fund?
And, in closing, Deputy Llywydd, I'd like the Deputy Minister to outline how the regional integration fund is being used to target preventative care, and to what extent has the period of transition been completed, and, if it has been successful, why does the Welsh Government still support the creation of the national care service? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Well, I thank Gareth Davies for those questions and comments. The progress towards a national care service is, as he said, a 10-year process, and, certainly, the RIF plays an important part for a considerable part of that time and we will be looking at whether it needs to be renewed or not. But, in terms of the national care service, we are, of course, working towards the integration of health and social care, but a national care service is something that will require there to be similar standards across Wales. It's far beyond a mechanism for developing individual projects in the way that the RIF has; it's a concept of having, you know, equalised standards throughout the whole of Wales to ensure that people are all earning at least the real living wage, which is one step we've already made towards the national care service, and it's an attempt to ensure that, at whatever stage you are in your life, you're able to get the help that you need. So, I don't see RIF as being something that is instead of that. RIF was brought in through the regional partnership boards as part of the legislation that we do have in this Senedd, and the national care service is a much longer and more fundamental change. So, I don't see them being in contradiction at all, but we are committed towards a national care service and we have made progress towards it. We will have a national office, which will be opening within Welsh Government in April next year. We will have a national framework, where we'll be looking at terms and conditions, because, obviously, with social care having 80 per cent delivered through the private sector, it's quite difficult to get standards that will be equal throughout the sector, and so that is what we see a national care service doing. But I think the Member is absolutely right in talking about prevention and that prevention is absolutely crucial, and that's why we are working very hard to try to stop people coming into hospital.
He mentioned the issues about delayed discharges, and that is one of our key priorities, and we have done a lot of work on this. Because some of the delays have been linked to having people there to be able to do assessments, such as social work assessments or other assessments, we have ensured now that we've got a trusted assessor model, which means that you don't have to be a social worker, for example, to do an assessment. You can learn the skills that are needed and you can do an assessment. That has made a big impact in terms of bringing down the waits and delays because of the lack of somebody to assess the people involved.
So, we are certainly tackling the delays, and we've also got much better data collection, which again is ensuring that we've got very accurate data, so we know exactly why individuals are being delayed: what is the reason? Is it a social worker? Is it medicine being provided? Is it physiotherapy? And the Minister for Health and Social Services ensured that an extra £8.4 million has been put into palliative care, for example—which, again, we want to keep people at home when they need palliative care, not to have to go into hospital, as many people are in hospital—and also money for reablement. So, these are the sorts of things that we have to put into the community. So, I reiterate that I feel we are making a really good basis now for moving ahead. We've seen some progress. There is a long way to go, but we're very committed to doing that.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Well, as we know, Wales has an ageing population. By 2031, almost a third of the Welsh population will be over 60 and 12 per cent over 75 years old, so the need to align health services more effectively with social care is clearly one of the core policy challenges facing us over the next decades.
I'm pleased that Plaid Cymru has succeeded in securing the development of a long-term work programme to establish an integrated care programme for Wales, which will be free of charge, meaning that people won't be penalised for being poor. This is an ambition that will bear fruit down the road. In the meantime, however, it is crucial that the right foundations are laid, and therefore I welcome this update from the Deputy Minister on the steps that have been taken to develop the RIF. One of the main objectives is to improve the efficiency of care in the community and its provision, which is a key part of the preventative agenda. But, as we've noted many times now in debates on the budget, it's difficult to see how it's possible to square that ambition with the reality of the fact that more and more Government financial resources are being withdrawn from preventative programmes in order to maintain front-line services. This is not a new phenomenon. The Wanless report made it clear back in 2003 that we needed to redirect care and hospital treatment to be more focused in the community. However, over the past 20 years, funding for primary care has remained static, which means a decline in real terms.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I appreciate that the RIF is fixed up to March 2027, but its effectiveness has to be seen within the wider context of the Welsh Government's spending arrangements on primary and preventative care. I'd be grateful, therefore, if the Deputy Minister could explain how the budget for 2024-25 will affect the overarching aims of the RIF in the area of community-based care.
Another issue on which the RIF is rightly focused is supporting unpaid carers, which, according to the latest census data, make up around one in 10 of the entire Welsh population. We're well aware of their vital role within the health sector, with Social Care Wales estimating that their work is worth £8.1 billion to the Welsh economy each year. But, in what is becoming a recurring theme across the health and social care workforce, the value of what they put into the system is not reciprocated by what they get out of it, and the tragic irony in this case is that the very people who do so much for the health and well-being of our communities are themselves suffering. A recent report by the Networked Data Lab Wales has found that unpaid carers have worse mental and physical health outcomes than non-carers, and this is, in part, a consequence of relevant support mechanisms not being sufficiently targeted. This corroborates analysis undertaken by Carers Wales towards the end of last year, which showed that more than a quarter of unpaid carers considered their mental health to be 'bad' or 'very bad', and that half have experienced a deterioration of their physical health as a result of their caring responsibilities.
I note that, in 2021-22, regional partnership boards were expected to devote a minimum of 5 per cent of their RIF allocation to support unpaid carers. So, can the Deputy Minister confirm whether this remains an obligation for regional partnership boards? And, if so, why is this funding not having the desired impact in providing unpaid carers with the support they need? How is the Government going to ensure, therefore, that unpaid carers do not continue to be let down by the system that they contribute so greatly towards? Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch and thank you very much, Mabon ap Gwynfor, for your support for our long-term strategy and for the work that we've been able to do with Plaid Cymru in order to set up the expert group and ensure that we'll be moving towards a national care service over 10 years, which we are working closely together on.
In terms of how we are supporting, through the budget, to support care in the community, well, as Mabon ap Gwynfor will know, we have managed to increase the local government funding by 3 per cent. We wish it could be more, but it's being maintained and increased by 3 per cent. We're also pleased that we've been able to reinstate the social care workforce grant by £10 million, which we were afraid we were going to have to cut. But that is now being reinstated. And an additional, I think, £24 million has been added to the revenue support grant in order to support social care in the community.
So, we are very much aware that it is prevention and work in the community that we've got to concentrate our resources on, and I absolutely agree with him about the crucial importance of unpaid carers and the huge amount of work that they do to look after their loved ones, many of them from a very young age, which is a very important point, I think, about the young carers. And he said about one in 10.
I can confirm that 5 per cent of the RIF is still there to work with unpaid carers, and also confirm that there is £1 million each year that goes to the health boards to ensure that the movement between the hospital and home, when there is an unpaid carer involved, is given particular attention.
I'm aware also of the report that he refers to and the fact that there are often very gloomy portrayals of the stress that unpaid carers are experiencing, and that's why we felt very strongly that something must be done in order to support them by means of short breaks, because that was one of the things that we wanted. So, we have £9 million over a three-year period to provide short breaks for carers. I've been so impressed by some of the short breaks that have been provided. So, I think there are unpaid carers who are really benefiting from what we're doing, but there is an awful lot more to do because they do do such a huge amount of work in the community.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Before I go to the last question, Deputy Minister, just to let you know, there's a technical slight hitch, because you're covering your microphone with your paper, so we're picking you up from the side microphones and maybe not so clear.

Julie Morgan AC: Okay.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I really welcome the statement today to see how this work is progressing, and I note that there are two examples you refer to in your statement within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area. One of them, and I've seen it with my own eyes, is the hospital discharge project within Cwm Taf Morgannwg, and it's not simply the 88 people who were supported to move back home last year, but the over 600 people who did not need readmission because of the support they were given to stay within their homes and live independently. But there's also the work being done on the Sunnyside health and well-being centre in Bridgend through the regional partnership board capital funding.
But my question to you is this: we still know that in the Bridgend area of Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board footprint, we still have a significant problem with being able to discharge people out of Princess of Wales Hospital so that they can go back home or can live independently, and also then allow the flow through the hospital. So, do you see the regional partnership boards as a way to actually channel more funding into projects that can release the flows through the hospital and enable people to live well for longer at home?

Julie Morgan AC: Yes, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question. Enabling the flow through hospitals is one of the key issues that the regional partnership boards have to address, and it is one of their aims in order to do that. But, I think, obviously, that the flow through hospitals is held up by particular reasons, and with the data that we've got now, we are able to pinpoint exactly what is the reason for each person who is being delayed, and it varies month by month. Sometimes it's a lack of social work assessments; sometimes it's a lack due to a more medical reason; medicines can be a delay for people being discharged, and physiotherapy can be a delay. So, we're now in a position where we can actually see what is happening. And as I said in my response earlier, there's the development of the trusted assessor model, which is throughout Wales, and Bridgend has got trusted assessors, where you don't have to be a social worker to do one of these assessments; you can do a preliminary assessment that can enable somebody to go home, and you can put more effort in then when they're actually at home. So, that is happening, so that should enable this to bring down the list. But it is a long process, and we have had some—. Things have improved slightly, I would say, but we're on the right track, and I think we've got firmer foundations now.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Deputy Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Second Homes and Affordability

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 today is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on second homes and affordability. I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased today to provide an update on developments to address the large numbers of second homes and short-term lets in many communities and also the work of the Dwyfor pilot. This work takes forward our commitments in the programme for government and in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.
We have already made significant progress in bringing together a comprehensive suite of complementary measures. These give more leverage in managing future numbers of second homes and short-term lets. For example, since April 2023, local authorities have been able to introduce higher discretionary council tax premiums on second homes and long-term empty properties. Indeed, from April this year, 18 will be applying premiums on either or both types of property, and from April 2025, all but two local authorities have indicated they will be utilising the premiums.
A number of local authorities have also indicated they will increase the percentage charged year on year, over a three-year period, particularly for long-term empty properties. This would bring them alongside Cyngor Gwynedd in applying premiums above the previous maximum 100 per cent limit.
The Minister for Finance and Local Government has encouraged councils applying premiums to publish information about how much additional revenue has been raised through the premiums and how it has been used. Having this information is important: it ensures we know how local policies are working, as well as improving local transparency. We will continue to encourage improved communication in this space. Based on the information that local authorities have published to date for the 2022-23 financial year, we know that over £17 million of additional revenue was raised to be invested in public services, including addressing homelessness and improving the supply of social housing.
Last year, I announced a £50 million empty homes grant scheme, helping to bring 2,000 long-term empty homes back into occupation. The Welsh Government has protected the £25 million budget for 2024-25, and deferred £19 million of the 2023-24 budget to 2025-26 to maximise the scheme's impact. Again, along with the council tax premiums, this is part of a concerted and coherent approach to bringing these properties back into habitable use as people's homes.
We are acutely conscious of the challenge in finding affordable property, but also of being able to afford to remain in it. As part of the co-operation agreement, we considered gaps in the mortgage market and our current support for home ownership. This helped us to establish where local mortgages might fit into the current governmental package and to consider any further appropriate support. An immediate priority was considering a gap in the market for those struggling to afford mortgage payments and at serious risk of losing their home due to the cost-of-living crisis. Dirprwy Lywydd, as a result, we developed Help to Stay Wales, which launched in November 2023, with up to £40 million available over two years. We are keeping under review what further support may be provided locally, and £20 million of financial transactions capital was allocated in the final budget for this purpose.

Julie James AC: More broadly, we continue to investigate whether changes to the higher residential rates of land transaction tax could help advantage people buying homes for permanent occupation. We will continue to engage with local authorities to explore how increased LTT rates for second homes and holiday lets could be applied in their local areas in the future. This includes addressing the various policy, evidence and legal considerations.
Plans to introduce a statutory registration and licensing scheme for all visitor accommodation in Wales were set out by the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism on 9 January, with legislation expected to be introduced to the Senedd before the end of this year. The registration and licensing scheme is intended to deliver a register of visitor accommodation and to require providers to demonstrate compliance with safety and quality requirements. In line with the co-operation agreement commitment, we intend to focus our licensing efforts initially on short-term lets, which could otherwise be used as residential accommodation. This recognises the current disparity in regulation between the private rented sector and short-term holiday lets.
We have also made significant progress in supporting our Welsh-speaking communities. The Minister for Education and the Welsh Language established the independent Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities in 2022, with the aim of making recommendations to strengthen Welsh-speaking communities. The commission’s position paper, published last June, summarised its initial findings. The commission continues to consider a range of policy areas, including housing, the economy, planning, community development and education. These are, of course, interlinked and vital in supporting the future of our Welsh-speaking communities, and a final report, including recommendations, is due for publication in August.
The highest percentage of people able to speak Welsh is in north-west Wales. The Dwyfor pilot is working to bring together the efforts of a range of parties in this part of north-west Wales with a high density of Welsh speakers. Again, my thanks go to Cyngor Gwynedd, Eryri national park, Grŵp Cynefin and Adra housing associations, and to local communities for their work in the pilot. Cyngor Gwynedd’s considerations of the article 4 planning powers I set out in my January 2023 update are important in both the pilot and the national context. This work will help all parts of Wales better understand the implications and processes involved in taking forward this groundbreaking work.
Last summer, the council promoted and consulted broadly on its proposed direction, with information sent to all residential properties within the Gwynedd planning authority area. They received more than 4,000 responses, and I understand that these have now been analysed. Cyngor Gwynedd will develop a consultation report, which will go through the requisite steps before the council decides if the direction should be implemented. Cyngor Gwynedd is committed to sharing ongoing learning throughout this process, and, from this May, Eryri National Park Authority will also consult on introducing an article 4 direction in its area.
The successful multi-partner work on the piloted homebuy offer also continues. Grŵp Cynefin, Cyngor Gwynedd and pilot staff have made great strides since the programme became operational in Dwyfor in September 2022. I am pleased to note that there have now been 20 approvals across Dwyfor and 13 families have now completed, meaning that home ownership has become a reality for them. To put that into context, Dirprwy Lywydd, that is 13 in an area that saw a single completion in the preceding five years. Some of that is down to the additional flexibility we have built into the offer in the pilot area, and we are also taking the opportunity to consider the learning from this and whether it can be applied to other schemes.
The pilot is actively supporting community-led housing capacity and their aspirations, working with existing groups as well as encouraging new ones to form. Seven groups are now progressing with their own housing projects. This aligns with our aim to bring more properties, especially empty properties, into common ownership at local level, with a view to increasing long-term rentals.
I also committed to sharing updates on the pilot’s independent evaluation. This work will help develop a reliable evidence base on what works, building evidence in a Welsh context. The researchers are currently undertaking scoping work and stakeholder engagement. They have already reviewed key policy documents, completed a thorough data review, and are now in discussion with data holders as to how it can be used to measure key pilot outcomes.
This data will help measure outcomes linked to property uses, as well as rent costs, energy performance, land transactions, tourism and the Welsh language. The research will embrace the range of associated inputs, outputs, outcomes and impact. An online interactive application is being developed to allow users to observe impact and develop learning across different aspects of the pilot. More broadly, the evaluation will continue to engage with pilot communities, including young people and others seeking affordable housing, alongside a range of stakeholders.
Dirprwy Lywydd, as ever, there is a great deal happening in this broad and cross-cutting policy area. The work brings together a radical set of measures, unparalleled in a UK context, and a further progress report will follow in six months’ time. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. It was quite comprehensive, actually. I will declare an interest because of my own properties. As Community Housing Cymru have stated, building new homes has never been more difficult. The homelessness now seen in Wales is a national embarrassment. Affordable homes, for many, are a major problem in accessing them. However, the targeting of short-term holiday lets and second home owners is not the panacea you describe, because, like it or not, they do contribute towards our local economy.
You informed the Finance Committee that you can get about four houses per £1 million. That's a lot of money. And you also state in your statement that £17 million has come in as a result of the council tax premiums for homelessness and new rented social homes, so my statement is going to ask a few questions, Minister. I'd be really grateful if you could answer them today. So, how many new rented social homes have been built with the £17 million that's come in?
Now, you also state that £250,000 to—. No, it's a fact that a house now costs—. It used to be £179,000 was classed as an affordable home; it's gone up to £250,000. I believe that's unaffordable for many in my constituency. Would you look at reducing administrative costs for developers by releasing publicly owned land for development, particularly in the rented social sector? That's where there's a weakness in my own constituency and across Wales. There's no shortage of people coming in and wanting to build homes, but the majority of homes I'm seeing up for sale, Minister, in new little areas for estates and things are £395,000 plus. That's not where we need to be. We need to get these people out of temporary accommodation. We need to get them out of hotel rooms. They need a home, a roof above their own head. So, would you look at reducing some administrative costs, looking at the planning system to streamline it, so we can have these rented social homes coming forward?
We have 22,634 empty homes. Now, despite this trajectory—. And you're right, you did put £50 million into the empty homes grants scheme. I understand that's now £25 million, at a time when we need a number of those empty homes back in stock, so that they can become rented social homes. Clarity as to how deferring £19 million of the 2023-24 budget to 2025-26 will maximise the scheme impact—I'd like some clarity on that.
Data collection, we've raised in the committee, we've raised it here, Minister. Data collection, we really need to know now how many rented social homes we have, how many private sector rented homes we've got, how many second homes, how many—. We just need this data collection. Now, I've raised this in the past, why Rent Smart Wales can't be more proactive and an agent for this data collection. Are you taking that forward? You mentioned you were reviewing the work of Rent Smart Wales. How is that review progressing?
What steps will you take to encourage local authorities to use empty property management orders? And if that doesn't work, clamping down on the scourge of long-term empty homes by maybe using compulsory purchase powers.I've got a number of empty homes in Aberconwy where the probate is a nightmare. It can take up to two years to get probate through. Are you working with the UK Government to try and look at streamlining the probate delays?
Another question: is there going to be a financial hit to the Dwyfor project in the next financial year? You've actually held a pilot for second homes and Rent Smart Wales's anti-racismtraining for landlords, but is that going to be consistent?
I'll turn to the article 4 consultation. I responded directly to Gwynedd, formally objecting, for example, that section 1A would result in a resident who lives in their home within the area of Gwynedd impacted by the direction having to apply for planning permission for creating a short-term let within part of their property that they live in as their sole or main residence. We all know that, across Wales, people have gone into holiday lets and things. The whole market needs looking at, Minister. It isn’t quite as simple as your statement reads. So, I want to know how you intend to deal with those kinds of issues. The wish to generate extra income is to be commended, and it’s unsurprising when considering shocking facts, such as that residents of Arfon earn £3,500 less per year than the UK average wage. This is yet another consequence, I’m afraid, of 25 years of Welsh Labour propped up by Plaid Cymru.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Janet, you need to finish now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Targeting second home owners is not the panacea. I do believe we need to look at it—. It's not a word I like the use of, but we do need to look at it more holistically. But if you could answer those specific questions, I'd be grateful. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. That's quite a long list of things, and I think you've got a bit confused about some of the terms that you were using there. The £17 million that's been raised isn't just to build affordable homes; it's £17 million that goes into the coffers of the council, and it can be used for a range of public services, including the supply of local homes. Here in Wales, 'affordable homes' doesn't mean the same as it does in England, and if you saw the statistics in England, you'd be really quite shocked. The number of social homes for rent in England has declined rapidly. There's actually a net loss of social homes for rent in England over the last 15 years, whereas actually there's a huge increase here in Wales. The term 'affordable' of course just means 80 per cent of market rent. It's not affordable for nearly anyone, so we don't use that term—we use 'social homes for rent', and that's what we're building 20,000 of. So, just to be really clear, those are two completely different things.
The Dwyfor pilot has been very successful for a number of reasons, not least that what we're trying to do is establish a sustainable community that has a series of mixed-use housing in it. To get a sustainable community, you need a range of things, but what you most need is for local people who have local jobs to be able to live locally. We can't have a thriving tourist industry if there's nobody to work in it, or they all have to travel 100 miles to get to their job because everything has been bought up by second home owners.The second home owners themselves don't want to come to some picturesque village that is actually a ghost town with no shops or pubs or anything else, because it's not sustainable, because there's nobody actually living there.
Just to be really clear, what we're trying to do is make sure that our communities are sustainable, good, mixed-use communities, where there's a mix of tourist accommodation, there's a good mix of local residential accommodation, and that's across all tenures—social homes to let, co-operative housing, shared equity, owner occupation, and so on. That is a sustainable community, and in a community such as that you would have local amenities like schools and GP practices and local shops and pubs, and so on, that would have a customer base all year round and be able to be sustainable, whereas we know as soon as a community starts to come away from that sustainable mix, it dies.
In my own constituency we have a studentification, as we call it, right through the middle, and the result of that is that none of the shops or pubs have been able to survive. When the students go home in June and don't come back till October, they're all shut. That's not what the students want, it's not what the locals want, and so what we want to do is not discourage the students, who bring vibrancy and money—exactly as the tourists do in many parts of Wales, and indeed in Swansea. What we want to do is spread them out in a way that means that they're not killing the community that is the very reason they're there in the first place, and so we know that.
What this pilot is doing is showing us what the various interventions in the market do, and they're very successful. I'm sorry you can't see that, Janet, because this really is a very good news story. With the best will in the world, you really should sometimes just accept that something has worked. This really is working. This means that people who are lucky enough to be able to afford more than one home have to pay a bit more—in some cases, the first time they've paid anything. I don't have any problem with that at all. If you're lucky enough to own more than one house, then you should be able to pay a bit more. It also means that there is more housing stock for local people who need to work and live locally to work in the tourist industries that are bringing those people there in the first place. This is a virtuous circle, and not a vicious one, and so I'm afraid I simply don't accept the premise of your argument.
On the probate point, I couldn't agree more, but I'm afraid the UK Government has under-resourced virtually every area of the Government that deals with probate. The civil justice system, the probate system itself, the Court of Protection and everything else is completely under-resourced, and, of course, therefore, probate takes much longer, and that's part of the problem we have with the empty homes. We've put exceptions in, for example, for the 100 per cent increase on council tax for probate; we started off at six months and are now up to a year. But, I agree, probate is sometimes taking two years, so we may need to have a look at some of those exceptions. And that's why it's so hard to say what an empty home is. It can well be the case that a family has inherited a home between three or four siblings, and they can't do anything with it until they've got through that system. So, we have to take those exceptions into account, and we're very much keen to do that locally. So, I think this is, pretty much, an unmitigated success story.
Just on the article 4 direction, we're very keen that local authorities are able to take into account the local circumstances, and that's why it's been done in the way it's been done. We understand now that Gwynedd and Eryri are having a look at what that looks like locally. I understand—although I don't have anything in front of me at the moment—that a number of other authorities in the west are doing so. I understand that Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire national park authority are also showing an interest in the pilot, for example, and for obvious reasons, because this may be one of the levers that allows us to have this good sustainable community.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for this update on an issue that is of national importance to us. I know that some have said that this is a local issue in terms of second homes, but they are wrong. Communities are being gentrified in many ways, and there are many examples of this. So, it's good to see the Government coming to agreement with us in Plaid Cymru in order to find a resolution to this gentrification.
I want to take this opportunity, if I may, to give specific thanks to Siân Gwenllian, and the team that has supported her, in working with you, Minister, in order to bring these measures forward. Because many of our communities have been disembowelled by the numbers of second homes that have pushed property prices up, and undone the social fabric of many of our communities as families move out from the communities where they were brought up. There is evidence that the plan is working and bearing fruit.
If I could be so bold as to update the Minister. The Minister mentioned the figures from 2022-23, but, in Cyngor Gwynedd, in 2023-24, the council there has been able to raise £9 million through the premium, with £6 million having been allocated to a fund in order to implement the housing action plan, which aims to provide homes for young people in our communities, and £3 million for a homelessness budget plan. But there are a few questions that need to be asked, and some points that need further consideration, and I will raise those now.
The latest statistics demonstrate that the number of second homes is expected to fall by 2,240, or 9.3 per cent, down from 24,000 to 21,000, in the next financial year. This is a significant fall, and perhaps shows that the programme is working in its objectives. But it doesn't prove finally that this is succeeding. So, can the Minister expand on what plans are in place in order to hold a comprehensive assessment of the steps that have been taken, and their success?
The Minister mentioned article 4 and how Gwynedd Council is proceeding with that programme. Of course, the Eryri National Park is about to start the process, and there's talk of Ceredigion counciland Pembrokeshire also doing so. The Government has been very generous in its support to Gwynedd Council in pushing this forward. I wonder whether the Minister can tell us if there is going to be any support available for other authorities that want to proceed with the introduction of article 4.
The Minister will be aware of recommendations made by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg—the Welsh language society—in promoting a property Act, which includes the right to a home that is fit for purpose, community ownership and the need to provide housing in accordance with needs. So, what consideration has the Minister given to these policy proposals, and when are we likely to see some of these elements being incorporated into the Government's policy framework?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Finally, while efforts to promote affordable housing are commendable, it is essential to recognise the need for a significant expansion in Wales's social housing stock. The Welsh Government's target to build 20,000 new social homes during its present term is far from adequate, and the Government is not going to reach the target at the current rate of progress. The supply of affordable homes for medium- and low-income households must be increased substantially for rent and for purchase, by building new houses and putting more emphasis on procuring housing from the current stock. This has to be done according to local need, for which we need accurate data and an increase in the construction workforce. So, can the Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans to expedite the delivery of the social housing delivery target and how the Government will ensure that the Welsh housing stock of tomorrow is affordable, accessible and reflects local need? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. There's much to agree with you about there. It's good to hear the updated statistics; we wait for ours to be authenticated, but I've had them anecdotally—is that the right word—so it looks like it's travelling in the right direction. I think the 9 per cent fall in second homes speaks for itself. As you know, part of the evaluation is to make sure that the cumulative impact of what we're doing heads us in the right direction. One of the difficulties of the evaluation—we're working through it and I said in my statement how that was being done—was to try to pinpoint the effect of the various interventions and see what the cumulative effect is. One of the issues with the article 4 direction, for example, is what is the cumulative impact on top of the other measures like the LTT and so on. So, that is definitely a piece of work that needs to be looked through, and it's part of what we are seeing as the accelerator in the council tax percentage increase, for example. So, we're looking carefully to see what happens as you accelerate that increase.
There are unintended consequences for some of these things, so that's one of the things we need to be very careful about. I said when we first introduced the council tax increase accelerator programme—and Rebecca Evans repeated it when she introduced it—that a very large number of the second homes in the north-west of Wales are actually owned by people who live in Cardiff and Swansea, and they go there a lot and spend a lot of money there. What we don't want to do is drive those people out and replace them with people who are much further away, who don't ever go there, and it's just an empty property. So, we have to be really careful that the calibration is right so that you get the tourists who spend money and not the ones who are just holding the property as an investment and just come, perhaps, once every three years or something. So, it is a careful calibration and I know that Gwynedd Council have been really looking carefully at what the mix is.
And then, as I said in response to Janet—and I know that you agree and Siân and I have had many a conversation about this—this is about trying to engineer backwards a sustainable community that's been driven away by an unfettered investment market in property, because the UK has a very dysfunctional property market; we regard our homes as investments, which is mad, really. It drives a set of behaviours that are not conducive to sustainable economies.
I should say at this point, Llywydd, that I feel I should declare an interest a little bit myself, because although I don't live in a Welsh-speaking community, more's the pity, the community I live in is also a beauty spot in Wales—I'm very lucky to live there. My children will never live in the village they grew up in. The houses there are selling for millions of pounds and it will become a ghost town very quickly. When I moved there, I bought a derelict house for a fourpence-halfpenny—it'll be lovely when it's finished, as my mother always says—and most of the houses there were shabby chic, if you want to say, and they had local people living in them, and so on. And very, very slowly over the 30 years that we've lived in that village, it's gone from everybody living there to not very many of us living there, and you can see that happening. That's what we need to guard against. It's great that we have some people who come who are tourists. There are friends of mine who live next door and they come often. But it's also not great that none of the village children will ever live in that village, and that's the case repeated in village, after village, after village right around Wales. And it's even worse in Welsh-speaking communities, for all the reasons we know about.
I think, as a Government and as a set of parties, we have been determined to make sure that our communities are resilient to this. We are lucky that we live in such a beautiful place that so many people want to visit. We are lucky we have a thriving tourist industry, but it will not thrive if the people who work in it cannot live locally and have decent lives. So, we must find a way to make these communities sustainable into the future and thrive for local people, and that's what we're trying to do, isn't it?
So, there are a couple of other things I want to say. The expansion of social homes is a good one. So, the next phase of the expansion of social homes that we're looking at is—we've just changed the way that we assess the local housing need for local authorities, and that's bedding in right across Wales. That will produce better results locally once people have got used to the methodology for it, and then we can target particular sites in various local authorities for that.
I am very keen to develop a pattern book of social housing so that once a site is allocated for housing in the local development plan and it's all gone through the process, if you're prepared to build a set of patterns on a particular site, you've basically got planning consent, way to go. That's where we're trying to go with it so that we can build small groups of social housing in the villages we're talking about, where local people who've grown up there but will never access housing can get their foot in the door. Some of those need to be shared equity, for obvious reasons, and then you need a series of other co-operative and other housing. There are many more things we can do, but this is a great start.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement. I'm very pleased to see that, since 2023, local authorities have been able to introduce higher discretionary council tax premiums on second homes and long-term empty properties. I've just discovered it's now being copied in England. So, I think that people may well have to change what they have said up till now.
I'm pleased that the Welsh Government are conscious of the challenges in finding affordable properties. Having, for the last 12 months, been looking for a house on Ynys Môn for my daughter, where I know wages are low, I soon discovered that house prices are substantially higher than in Swansea. As well as second homes, we have, unfortunately, seen the growth of Airbnb, and that really is the big problem that is going to have to be addressed, I would suggest, by legislation. Airbnb has inflated house prices, while taking properties out of the rental market, a loss for those looking for properties. It's a gain for landlords, who can charge more for a week than the rent would be for a month. Does the Minister agree that we need to address the growth of Airbnb alongside empty properties and second homes, and what about looking at empty chapels and churches and bringing them into use as homes? Darren Millar's nodding.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Mike. So, just addressing that last one first, and I know your long-term interest in bringing many of the old chapels and churches in Wales back into beneficial use, we have started a conversation with Cadw about, again, patterns for what can be done for various buildings. It actually is a very good way to preserve the heritage, as you know, and I know you've worked very hard on this, as well as providing much-needed homes, whereas, often, if the church or chapel can't be converted in that way, it actually becomes derelict very quickly and you lose the heritage as well. So, I think there's a very definite win-win to be had there.
On Airbnb, I couldn't agree more. One of the things that we're going to do with our statutory licensing and registration scheme, which is part of the co-operation agreement, of course, is to level the playing field. At the moment, if you run an Airbnb—I'm not saying everybody does this, many of them are very responsible—you don't actually have to have any insurance or any electrical testing or anything at all, really. The house could have had nothing done to it for donkeys. That's just not right, it seems to me. If you're offering a property for accommodation for tourists, then that should be safe and fit for human habitation. But it also should have a level playing field with the local bed and breakfast or hotel establishment, long-cherished family, grounded firms who have a large number of hoops to jump through and are very disadvantaged in that market.
So, as I said in my statement, one of the first things we want to look at is a licensing and registration scheme for properties that could be used as long-term residential accommodation, but that are currently being used for Airbnb or tourist accommodation, to bring them up to the same standard. That's all we're saying. So, you should have to have the same insurance, the same electrical testing, the same carbon monoxide alarms, the same, you know—as people would actually expect and that you would have to have if you were running a local bed-and-breakfast establishment, for example, or a hotel. You should have to have a fire safety risk assessment—you should have to have the documentation that people should expect to have when they go on holiday to be kept safe.
You also should, I think, be aware of your obligations, and you should have to register in the same way as you do with Rent Smart Wales. That's been very successful, I don't see why we can't do something very similar. It might not be identical, but very similar. I also want to encourage people back into the long-term rented sector with this. So, if you do have to jump through all of those hoops, you might actually think, ‘Well, actually, do you know what? I’d be better off to have an income all year round, than I would to have a spike in my income in the summer and then go back down again.' So, this is about putting the policy platform in place to drive the kinds of behaviours we actually want people to have. So, again, if you're lucky enough to have a second home, then you might think about using it for that longer term let for a local young person or family, rather than the tourist sector. Not all of them, of course; we want the tourists to come, but we also want the workers that keep the tourists vibrant. So, that's very much the aim of the statutory licensing scheme, and, again, I've had a discussion with my counterpart in Plaid Cymru very often about doing that.
Airbnb themselves are very supportive of flats; they want their properties to be well managed and maintained. And I just want to emphasise that, exactly the same as long-term landlords, the vast majority of people who do it do do the right thing, but they haven't got to is the point. So, I do agree with Mike Hedges that we need to do that.
It is nice to see these things being copied in England. We've had a lot of interest off the national park areas in England: Cornwall, the Lake district and so on. You see that the first signs of them actually copying Wales. So, like the plastic bag tax, I think we'll see the escalation of the council tax calculator as well.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I want to pick up on a point that Mabon ap Gwynfor started to press on, which is around house building and more properties being built in our communities, and you're exactly right, where there are communities where there are children being brought up in that village aren't able to purchase a property there, that is an issue. But one of the best ways of resolving that issue is to see more houses being built that are appropriate and affordable for that community. And we heard Public Health Wales recently come out saying the same sort of thing, that we need to see more homes built to meet demand.
One of the things that strikes me is the multiple layers that we have in terms of a strategic view of housing in Wales. We have the 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040' at a Wales level, we have the future role of corporate joint committees and strategic planning at a regional level, and, of course, we have LDPs at a local authority level, and these not necessarily always aligning, both in terms of dates and timescales, but also in terms of demand or how they see the demand of types of housing, whether it be affordable housing or other types of housing. So, just wondering what your reflections may be in terms of those different layers of strategic planning and oversight of housing in Wales, and whether there may be merit in aligning those more closely, especially in terms of timescales and the demands, as, for example, in north Wales, the six LDPs showing what the level of affordable housing need is will not align with the regional view that then won't align with the all-Wales view. I think there's probably an issue sometimes in terms of actually being very clear on what the plan is for Wales. Diolch.

Julie James AC: So, Sam, I take the point you're making, and if we'd started with a blank sheet of paper, we wouldn't have started where we were, so we would have put, obviously, the national plan in first, then the regional plan, then the LDP signing off at the bottom of it, but in fact, we were the other way up, so we're playing catch up a little bit on a plan-led system. But once the whole of the plan-led system is in place, you will have that synergy; that's the whole point. And one of the frustrations for us, if you like, is in talking to local authorities—and I used to have this conversation with you when you were in a previous role, and so was I—we would very much like to see those local authorities coming together to do the regional strategic plan, so that, actually, when private sector developers come forward, they would understand what the infrastructure requirements of that strategic area were, and they would be able to factor that into the affordability for their development in a way that's more transparent than it is at the moment. So, that's kind of the point, really. What you've just outlined is kind of the point, but we are slightly the wrong way round until we've got the strategic level plans in place.
And then we've been very clear with local authorities that once the strategic level—. So, we've got 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040' as the strategic overview. Once the strategic regional plan is in place—and those six local authorities would be part of making that, of course—then what you'd have underneath that is an LDP lite; you wouldn't need to go through the whole thing, because a lot of the infrastructure and the planning for big services, hospitals and schools and so on, would be part of that strategic plan, and then the developer coming forward will be able to see what their likely contribution to those kinds of infrastructure requirements would be, and that speeds the system up. And then, as I said in answer to Mabon, I think it was, I'm then very keen, once we've got the allocation of housing right through the local market housing assessment route, which is much more specific to the local area than it used to be when you were a council leader—we've changed that a little bit over the last three years or so—that we have, if you like, pre-approved areas. So, once it's gone through the LDP as a housing site and it's available for housing, and we've been much stricter with local authorities about what comes forward as housing, as in it is possible to put housing there, as we have had some egregious examples of cliffs, which were marked for housing—. So, we've worked with each local authority in turn to make sure that what's brought forward as a housing site can actually have housing on it. And then, if you're prepared to develop it to the plan, then you'd have, effectively, deemed planning consent, as long as you adhere to some of those plans.
Some of the volume house builders won't want to do that because they like a higher density on their plots and so on, but where you're prepared to put the green infrastructure in place and to pepper pot the social housing throughout, then you'd have an accelerated route to that. I'm very, very keen to do that. And then we've already enabled the local authorities—as I should have said in response to Mabon, actually—we've already enabled both local authorities and our registered social landlords to buy off-plan. Because of the boom in housing, that wasn't very much used over the last few years, but actually we're now going into a dip and we've seen an acceleration of purchase off-plan for social housing. And that, of course, helps our small and medium-sized enterprise builders in particular not to go into the dip, because they can still sell them from plans. So, I think that, once we've got those strategic plans in place, and we are three or four years off that, we will see a much better throughput in the way that you outline.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

8. The Special School Residential Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2024

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 8 is next, the Special School Residential Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2024. I call on the Deputy Minister to move the motion—Julie Morgan.

Motion NDM8510 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Special School Residential Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2024 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 20 February 2024.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motion.

Julie Morgan AC: The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 provides the statutory framework for the regulation and inspection of social care services in Wales. Regulations defining special school residential services as a new regulated service have already been passed and came into force at the end of December. The regulations before you today, the Special School Residential Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2024 exercise powers within the Act to place requirements on providers and responsible individuals of regulated services. They complete the regulatory framework.
These regulations focus on the quality and safety of services and the individual's well-being and outcomes. They will have a positive impact on children and young people staying at the service and the overall quality of service provision. The regulations will contribute to establishing a more consistent approach to the regulatory oversight of services caring for vulnerable children. I commend the regulations to Members.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee to contribute—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. We considered these draft regulations on 4 March, and we subsequently considered the Welsh Government’s response to our reporting points at our meeting yesterday afternoon.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: These regulations will replace, as the Minister has said, the national minimum standards for residential special schools made under section 23(1) of the Care Standards Act 2000, and set the quality standards against which special school residential services will be regulated and inspected against under the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016. As the Minister has said, they complete the regulatory platform.
Our report contains nine technical reporting points, two of which highlight potential defective drafting, one which highlights inconsistencies across the English and Welsh texts, and six that raise matters where we consider that the form or meaning of a provision requires further explanation.My comments this afternoon will focus on just four of the reporting points. However, just to remind everyone that the full report and the Government response are available from today’s agenda.
Our first technical reporting point notes that the term 'care and support' is used throughout the regulations. 'Care', 'support' and 'care and support' are given specific meanings by section 4 of the 2016 Act, but the regulations do not give a specific meaning to the term.The Legislation (Wales) Act 2019 applies to these regulations, so terms that are defined in the 2016 Act do not bear the same meaning in the regulations. So, we asked for clarity as to whether the term 'care and support' is intended to have the same meaning as in the 2016 Act, and if so, why this is not specified in the regulations.
In response, the Welsh Government told us that it will ensure that the regulations are amended prior to making to address this issue, and that the definition will reference the existing definitions contained within the 2016 Act. So, I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for setting out in the response to our report the specific changes that the Government will make to the regulations before they are made, and I would similarly draw this to Members' attention.
Our third reporting point highlights potential defective drafting, and it notes that regulation 1(3) defines a DBS certificate as the certificate referred to in paragraphs 2 and 3 of Schedule 1. The words 'the certificate' indicate a single certificate, but paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to different certificates. In our view, it is not clear whether both certificates are covered by the definition. So, in response, the Welsh Government has said that even though the definition refers to two certificates, it considers this is unlikely to be a problem in practice as it will be clear which type of certificate should be applied for. The Government response acknowledged that an alteration to the wording may indeed assist the reader, but the Government does not believe that an urgent amendment is required. Nonetheless, the Government has agreed to review the regulations at the earliest opportunity, with a view to making amendments. So, perhaps the Minister could, in closing, just give an indication to the Senedd of when such an opportunity might arise.
Our seventh reporting point notes that regulation 79(3)(b) provides for a modification to section 21(2) of the 2016 Act. In our view, the introductory wording of the modification in regulation 79(3)(b) does not quite make sense. The Welsh Government has accepted our reporting point and has confirmed that the regulations will be amended prior to making.
And finally, in our eighth reporting point, we highlight an inconsistency in regulation 82(a) across the English and Welsh texts. The English translation for 'the fostering regulations' in the Welsh text erroneously referred to 'the adoption regulations'. Again, in response, the Welsh Government has accepted our reporting point and has confirmed that the regulations will be amended prior to making.
So, again, we thank the Minister for the way in which she and her officials have responded to our reports. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no further speakers, so the Deputy Minister to respond.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you. I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of these regulations. The committee proposed several technical amendments and I'm pleased to have accepted the majority of their suggestions. In the first point the Chair made, he accepted the Government's response. In the second one, he asked when this would be reviewed, and I'd like to confirm that this will be at the earliest opportunity. And I think, on items 3 and 4, our responses were acceptable to the committee. So, thanks once again to the committee for doing those responses.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections, so the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Amendment) and Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 9 is next, the Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Amendment) and Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. The Minister for Climate Change is to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM8511 Lesley Griffiths.
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Amendment) and Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 20 February 2024.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The Senedd is asked to approve these regulations relating to the landfill disposals tax. The draft regulations have two objectives: firstly, to increase the standard, lower and unauthorised disposal rates for landfill disposals tax to apply to taxable disposals made on or after 1 April 2024; and, secondly, to amend a drafting error in the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 in relation to the penalties for late payment of landfill disposal tax charged on unauthorised disposals. The proposed increases to the rates are in accordance with the final budget for 2024-25 approved by the Senedd on 5 March. The standard and lower rates for landfill disposals tax will increase in line with the retail price index inflation as forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility. This approach ensures that the rate remains consistent with the UK Government landfill tax for the next financial year, providing the stability and certainty to businesses in line with our tax principles. Setting tax rates consistent with UK landfill tax means public services in Wales will continue to benefit from tax revenues whilst ensuring the risk of the movement of waste across the border is minimised.
Amending the drafting error will allow the Welsh Revenue Authority to charge a late payment penalty for tax charged pursuant to charging notices issued under the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Act 2017. I'm grateful for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's consideration of these regulations, and I ask Members to approve the regulations. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the legislation committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, as well. We considered these draft regulations on 4 March, and I now take the opportunity to thank the Minister for the Governmentresponse.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Our report contains 2 merits reporting points, only one of which required a Government response. Our first reporting point simply notes that section 25 of the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 provides that the Welsh Revenue Authority must pay amounts collected in the exercise of its functions into the Welsh consolidated fund. The WRA is responsible for the collection and management of landfill disposals tax, and these regulations prescribe the three rates of LDT in Wales.
Our second reporting point, however, is quite lengthy and detailed, and I would direct Members to our report for the full detail. But, in brief, regulation 5 of these regulations corrects the reference to section 48 or 49 of the 2017 Act in item 10 of table A1 in section 122 of the 2016 Act—I hope Members are sticking with me on this—so that it instead refers to charging notices issued under section 49 or 50 of the 2017 Act. We asked the Welsh Government to confirm if it has identified any other provisions in the 2017 Act that may require amendment, and if the Welsh Revenue Authority has imposed any late payment penalties on taxpayers in connection with notices issued under section 50 of the 2017 Act. In response, the Welsh Government said that it has not identified any other provisions in the 2017 Act that require amendment as a result of the insertion of section 25 during Stage 3 proceedings on the Bill, as it was before being enacted and becoming the 2017 Act. So, we're really grateful for that clarity. We think it's important to have it on record. And the Welsh Government also told us that the Welsh Revenue Authority has not yet issued any notices under section 50 of the 2017 Act and will not do so before this amendment to the 2016 Act takes effect. Therefore, no late payment penalties have been or will be imposed in connection to notices issued under section 50 of the 2017 Act prior to this amendment. And, again, we're grateful for that response and it's important to get that clarity on record as well.
We also asked the Government a number of ancillary questions concerning penalties that could have been incorrectly charged by the WRA if it had used the power in 122(3) of the 2016 Act before the correction proposed in these regulations had been made. But, once again, thank you, Minister, for your engagement with this and your response to the committee.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have no further speakers, so if the Minister wants to respond—. No, there is no further response needed.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 10 is next, which is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill. The Minister for Climate Change to move the motion formally.

Motion NDM8506 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
a) Sections 1-61;
b) Schedule 1;
c) Sections 62 - 91;
d) Schedule 2;
e) Sections 92 - 143;
f) Schedule 3;
g) Sections 144 - 146;
h) Long title.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: I move the motion.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: It is moved formally. I have no speakers on this motion. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, and the motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Items 11 and 12 are next, and, in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes.

11. & 12. Legislative Consent Motion on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill—motion 1, and Legislative Consent Motion on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill—motion 2

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The two motions are on the legislative consent motion on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill. The two motions are on that LCM. So, as there are no objections to discussing them together, I call on the Counsel General to move the motions—Mick Antoniw.

Motion NDM8512 Mick Antoniw
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provision in the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill, namely clause 2, treatment of conformity assessment bodies etc., insofar as it falls within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion NDM8513 Mick Antoniw
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill, namely clause 3 relating to public procurement, and clause 4 relating to designations of origin and geographical indications, insofar as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motions moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motions. These motions relate to the CPTPP Bill, which is needed in order to implement the comprehensive and progressive agreement for the trans-Pacific partnership so that the UK is compliant when the agreement comes into force. We have introduced proposals to ensure that the Senedd can scrutinise the issues related to the Bill and to come to a decision on consent. Members will see from the memorandum that we recommend partial consent and that there are good legal and constitutional reasons for this.

Mick Antoniw AC: This is a complex situation where the UK Government has made efforts to address concerns around the use of concurrent powers for one clause of the Bill, but, fundamentally, it does not agree with the Welsh Government over which other provisions of the Bill are within devolved competence. The UK Government believes only clause 3, Government procurement of the Bill, requires consent from the Senedd. However, the Welsh Government's view is that clause 2, treatment and conformity assessments bodies, and clause 4, designations of origin and geographical indications, GIs, also require an LCM.
Clause 2 relates to conformity assessment procedures, which provide assurance that products meet necessary regulatory requirements. These checks often need to be carried out by third-party organisations called 'conformity assessment bodies', CABs. The CPTPP requires that CABs established in the territories of the CPTPP parties are treated no less favourably than CABs located domestically or in another CPTPP territory. There is a difference of opinion between the Welsh Government and the UK Government over whether the clause operates in devolved areas or not. I'm concerned that clause 2 could be used to amend devolved provision. The fact that there is no devolved provision of that kind right now does not alter the fact that the clause can be used to amend devolved provision made in subordinate legislation in the future.
The scope of the clause 2 power is narrow. It can only be used to implement article 8.6 of the CPTPP agreement, and only then to amend certain kinds of subordinate legislation. But there is a principle at stake, the principle that implementation of international obligations in devolved areas is for the devolved institutions and not the UK Government, and certainly not by means of powers that allow the UK Government to act unilaterally in devolved areas. The Welsh Government has been consistently clear that it cannot recommend clause 2, as the inclusion of a power for the Secretary of State to legislate in devolved areas undermines the devolution settlement.
The Minister for Economy raised concerns about clause 2 in a bilateral meeting with the UK Minister for Investment, Lord Johnson of Lainston, in December, and offered amendment suggestions that could potentially have led him to recommend that the Senedd consents to this clause. Although there has been positive engagement between officials, we have been unsuccessful in persuading the UK Government to amend the clause as it is currently written, and it maintains that clause 2 falls within reserved competence. The Welsh Government disagrees with the UK Government's analysis regarding how this clause sits within the devolution settlement.
I acknowledge this is a complex area, and it is regrettable that an opportunity to make minor drafting changes that would have achieved the UK Government's goal in a way that respects devolution was not taken. If such changes had been made, I would be recommending consent to this clause today. The UK Government is aware of the issues that concurrent powers have created for the Welsh Government, so a decision to withhold consent to a clause that gives the Secretary of State power to act unilaterally in devolved areas will come as no surprise, and is consistent with our position during the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill.
However, the drafting of clause 3, regarding Government procurement, shows lessons have been learned from the previous TANZ Bill, and, as I understand that the UK Government has worked with Welsh Government to agree a different approach to the drafting for this Bill, we are pleased to be able to recommend consent to clause 3. On the whole, the Welsh Government is satisfied with the secondary legislation changes associated with clause 3 because they are considered necessary technical amendments to the devolved public procurement rules as they apply in Wales, as well as the equivalent amendments to the rules in the rest of the UK. Furthermore, the changes to procurement regulations are being detailed on the face of the Bill, with no new powers being created or conferred and, whilst equivalent powers would have been preferred, this is the next best option for taking forward these technical, clarificatory changes to secondary procurement legislation. Officials have had engagement with the UK Government throughout the negotiations within procurement, where opportunities have been provided to discuss areas of importance. Therefore, I recommend Members provide consent for clause 3.
Clause 4 covers geographical indications—GIs—and designations of origin. There are currently 19 of these, including Welsh lamb, Anglesey sea salt and single malt Welsh whisky. The UK Government has not requested the Senedd's consent to clause 4, asserting that they are intellectual property and reserved to the UK. This is a complicated area of law, where GIs are intertwined with both the common agricultural market, which is devolved, and intellectual property, which is reserved. The arguments are finely balanced, but, as we said in our legislative consent memorandum, an LCM is appropriate because clause 4 impacts on the devolved areas of agri-food, food labelling and food imports/exports. Given that clause 4 implements the obligations in a narrow policy area and where there is no policy divergence between the UK Government and Welsh Government, I'm recommending consent for clause 4.
So, I'll be taking forward two separate motions for this Bill. Motion 1 relates to clauses 3 and 4, and I recommend Members support this motion. Motion 2 relates to clause 2, for which I recommend Members withhold consent.
Although discussions on clause 3 of the Bill have been mainly positive, officials only received a draft of the full Bill on 24 October, 15 days before the Bill was laid in Parliament, and this only allowed limited time to analyse the devolved implications and a minimal window of opportunity to fully engage with UK Government before the Bill was laid. I hope the UK Government will provide more time in future for fuller engagement with devolved parties in developing UK trade Bills. This will ensure that devolved interests are fully explored, and officials can work together on securing mutually acceptable positions.
The Welsh Government has made it clear we'll always adhere to obligations in international agreements that the UK is party to, and will not seek to disrupt or hinder the implementation of an international agreement to which the UK has signed up to. Our recommendation to consent to this Bill in part demonstrates that as a Welsh Government we are fair and willing to support provisions with UK Acts that respect the devolution settlement, whilst acknowledging the co-operation that went into drafting of clause 3, but continuing to make it clear that we will not accept powers for the UK Government to act unilaterally in devolved areas. This vote relates only to clauses I have just mentioned, and is not intended to cover broader discussions on the UK's accession to the CPTPP. The Welsh Government's views on the UK's accession to this were set out in our perspective report, published in October 2023. Diolch, Llywydd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Chair of the legislation committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, thank you very much for your full and detailed response here today, but also within the Welsh Government's report as well. It's really, genuinely, very helpful. As you know, we laid our report on the Welsh Government's memoranda in respect of the trade comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership—the TCPTPP—on 22 February. I'll try not to say that again during the course of this. Within our report—. I think there was probably one too many 'Ts' or 'Ps' then, but anyway.
Within our report, we agreed with the Welsh Government’s assessment that clauses 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill do indeed require the consent of the Senedd. And as the Minister has laid out once again today, we also noted his view that the power within clause 2 of the Bill does not properly reflect the devolution settlement, as it is a power conferred on the Secretary of State alone.
We did recommend that the Minister should provide the Senedd with further information about the Welsh Government's position in respect of clause 2 of the Bill, and to set out how it would wish the clause to be amended, which we've heard in some detail today. We also recommended that the Minister should provide an update on the Welsh Government's engagement with the UK Government with regard to this clause, and we have indeed heard some really full and interesting detail on that today.
So, we thank the Minister for responding to our report last week to provide further information ahead of the debate today, and the additional information we've heard today. Now, the Minister told us, in reply and in advance of this debate, that the Welsh Government would wish to see clause 2 amended, so that the power within it is conferred on the Welsh Ministers with respect to the implementation of article 8.6 of the CPTPP—I think I got it right this time—agreement in devolved areas. He also told us that the Welsh Government would like the scope of the power to be restricted to amending subordinate legislation existing at the time clause 2 comes into force. And the Minister also provided an update on the engagement with the UK Government, which we've heard more about today, and, indeed, in advance of today, he told us that the engagement between officials had indeed been primarily positive and helpful, but the UK Government unfortunately continues to consider clause 2 as reserved and was therefore unwilling to make any amendments. So, even though there was some productive official engagement on this, it hasn't actually turned out to a productive outcome in terms of Welsh Government's ask, but we thank you for laying out the greater detail today.
I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of the committee to thank the Minister for the Welsh Government’s perspective report on the implications for Wales of the UK’s accession to CPTPP. This report assisted our scrutiny of the memoranda tabled by Welsh Government in respect of the Bill. Our report has welcomed its comprehensive level of detail, particularly as it relates to the implementation of international obligations in this devolved context. We also shared the Welsh Government’s belief, as set out in its report, that both it and the Senedd—and the Senedd—have a crucial role in implementing any legislative changes needed in devolved areas as a result of the UK’s new free trade agreements. Our report also welcomed the Welsh Government’s reference to its reliance on section 62 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 to make representations about any matter affecting Wales as it relates to international obligations. This is of crucial importance and interest to the Senedd. Because of the usefulness of the Welsh Government’s report, we recommended that it should replicate and build upon this approach for future international free trade agreements agreed by the UK Government.
So, we thoroughly welcome the Minister’s response, in which he has assured the committee that it can expect a similar approach against future UK negotiations, when the country, or the countries, are of a sufficient significance to Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Luke Fletcher AS: I want to reiterate that Plaid Cymru continues to oppose the use of LCMs as a matter of principle. The increasing use of LCMs by the UK Government over the past few years speaks to their disregard for the devolved administrations, as well as their damaging centralising agenda. The Counsel General highlighted in his contribution how this could happen with clause 2. And the late laying of the Bill is of concern as well, given its implications for Wales and then the lack of time for wider scrutiny by this Senedd.
Now, Plaid Cymru have a number of concerns as to how the trans-Pacific partnership contradicts a number of principles and aims we have here in Wales. One of our well-being goals is that of a globally responsible Wales and, when we provide public investment, we do so in line with the economic contract, to ensure social and environmental aspects are prioritised. However, we know that, with this trade agreement, we'll see greenhouse gas emissions increase. For example, this agreement will remove tariffs on palm oil imports, which will have devastating consequences for deforestation and biodiversityglobally. The partnership also includes a number of countries that have poor records on human rights, and the agreement has pitiful provisions on labour rights, both of which were highlighted by the Government as a concern, and surely this should have a standing in deciding whether or not we consent to such LCMs.
Now, UK Government also promised to uphold food, environment and animal welfare standards for domestic produce, but there's no such requirements on imports with partnership member countries, meaning that products made to a lower standard, for example, by using pesticides or chemicals that are banned in the UK and that are perhaps cheaper processes could enter the UK market, this then, in turn, placing Welsh farmers on the back foot when trying to compete both internationally and domestically with other trans-Pacific partnership countries. It would also place our domestic exporting businesses on the back foot. So, does the Welsh Government agree that this agreement will put both Welsh farmers and other Welsh businesses at a competitive disadvantage? Because here's the reality of the situation: the Conservatives in Westminster tore us out of the European Union with no plan or regard for what would happen after. They failed to negotiate adequate replacement trade deals and have cheated Wales out of replacement EU funds that were promised—not a penny less, we were told. The trans-Pacific partnership is a poor replacement for previous EU trading relationships, shown clearly by the research from Loughborough University suggesting that the estimated gain to the UK is 0.08 per cent of gross domestic product, just a fiftieth of the Office for Budget Responsibility's estimate of what Brexit has cost the UK economy to date. So, given the numerous concerns that have been raised with the agreement, does the Counsel General believe that the potential negative impacts of this agreement outweigh the limited benefits for Wales?
And so, whilst I accept the reasoning given by the Counsel General, in situations like this as well, where there are implications in international obligations to Wales, how do we actually then ensure that Welsh input is acknowledged and even listened to?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Counsel General to reply to the debate.

Mick Antoniw AC: If I can just thank the Members for the responses that we've had, particularly from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. And, of course, what this LCM does do is identify the anomaly of what happens when there is a disagreement over the interpretation, but, of course, the position we've adopted here is, even though we've disagreed with the analysis, certainly in respect of clause 4, of whether it relates to a devolved matter or not, we've nevertheless consented because we consider it makes sense to actually do so.
Can I say to the comments just made with regard to the use of LCMs, this is not a choice of use of LCM, because the LCM is a process that immediately kicks in once UK Government legislation is presented that has potentially an impact in devolved areas? So, we have no option but to go down that particular road.
But, in respect of the final point, well, there is no doubt that our trading position and the position for Welsh agriculture were much more secure and much better when we were part of the single market. We're not now and we have the consequences of that. What we've done with this legislative consent is to consent to those areas that make sense to do so within the bounds that we are with regard to international agreements and this CPTPP Bill.
So, basically, just to reiterate, I ask Members to consent to motion 1, namely clause 3 relating to public procurement and clause 4 relating to designations of origin and geographical indications. However, we cannot support clause 2, relating to the treatment of conformity assessment bodies, as they present a threat to our constitutional principles and devolution settlement, and the detail is laid out in motion No. 2, and I ask Members to withhold consent for these aspects of the Bill.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion under item 11 first. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. So, we will defer voting under this item.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The nest proposal is to agree the motion under item 12. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will defer voting under that item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

13. Legislative Consent Motion on the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 13 is next, the legislative consent motion on the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill. I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM8509 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. Thank you for the opportunity to explain the background to the LCM on the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill. In 2020, I agreed to a joint consultation with the UK Government on improvements to animal welfare during transport. Included was a proposal to end live export of relevant livestock, including horses for slaughter and fattening, on which there was no exception. The Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, a UK Government Bill, was introduced in May 2022. It promised to deliver important animal welfare reform, including a ban on live export for slaughter. A significant amount of work went into the Bill, and I was extremely disappointed when it fell. However, I've welcomed the UK Government taking forward a ban on live export for slaughter as an individual measure Bill.
We share the view that animals should only be transported when necessary, and journey duration should be minimised. The export of animals for slaughter or fattening is unnecessary because they could be slaughtered or fattened domestically. The Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill will prohibit the export of relevant livestock, including horses for slaughter and for fattening for subsequent slaughter, beginning in or transiting through Great Britain to outside the British isles. The ban will apply to cattle and other bovines, such as bison and buffalo, sheep, goats, pigs or wild boar, horses and other equine animals, such as ponies, donkeys and mules. The ban will not apply to the movement of livestock and horses within Great Britain, nor will it apply to exports for other purposes, for example, exports for breeding, competition, racing and scientific purposes.
The Bill empowers the appropriate national authority—the Secretary of State, Scottish Ministers or Welsh Ministers—to make regulations to provide for the enforcement of the prohibition on export for slaughter. This regulation-making power is exercisable by the Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales in areas of legislative competence. The Bill creates a new concurrent-plus power, providing the Secretary of State may make enforcement regulations in areas of devolved competence only with the consent of Welsh Ministers.
Animal welfare is a devolved policy area. However, there are times when there are clear benefits to working collaboratively with the UK Government to improve animal welfare and ensure consistent application of the law. The Bill sets out a new legal framework prohibiting the live export of relevant livestock and horses for the purpose of slaughter or fattening for slaughter. These matters are within the legislative competence of the Senedd. Consent is required for the entire Bill, save for the provisions that apply only in relation to England or Scotland. It has progressed rapidly, and is unamended since its introduction in December 2023. I hope Members will support this important Bill as it nears its final stages.
I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their reports on the LCM on the Bill. I have noted both committees' conclusions and recommendations and I welcome the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee’s recommendation for the Senedd to give consent to the Bill. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Chair of the legislation committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I've spent the afternoon being complimentary to Ministers, and, Minister, when I make some of my remarks, it's not about you personally, but you'll be familiar with our approach generally, particularly around things like concurrent powers, but particularly when there are concurrent powers being passed to UK Ministers to exercise their views in terms of devolved competences.
But can I just take this opportunity, Llywydd, to thank my committee members and the clerking team for the work on this and the other instruments that we've discussed this afternoon? We laid our report on this legislative consent memorandum for the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill last week, before the Senedd. I would also like to thank RSPCA Cymru, who shared with us their views on the Bill as well.
Let me begin by confirming that the committee considers that the provisions of the Bill as set out in the memorandum fall within a purpose within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as described in Standing Order 29, and therefore indeed require the consent of the Senedd, as the Minister has said this afternoon as well.
The second focus of our report concentrates on the delegated powers in the Bill and the creation of concurrent functions. So, as the Minister has already said, the Bill, in clauses 2 and 7, creates new regulation-making powers for the Welsh Ministers. The Bill also creates new concurrent functions, and this is an area where, previously, both Senedd committees and the Welsh Government have raised concerns. However, through clause 6, the negative impact that the creation of a concurrent function would have is being mitigated by disapplying the relevant restrictions in Schedule 7B to the 2006 Act in respect of concurrent functions that would have otherwise applied. Now, this is to be welcomed.
But I need not remind anyone that the purpose of today’s debate and vote is to make clear the Senedd’s decision on whether it consents to the UK Parliament making legislative provision in a devolved area. So, to be clear, we are deciding whether we, as democratically elected Members of the Senedd, are content for different parliamentarians in a different place to make law on a subject for which this Parliament has responsibility.
So, my committee, and indeed our predecessor in the fifth Senedd, have voiced concerns over the approach adopted by successive Welsh Governments to legislating, particularly in the area of animal welfare—a devolved responsibility. In October 2021,we laid before the Senedd our fifth report in this sixth Senedd on a legislative consent memorandum for a relevant Bill passing through the UK Parliament. That report was on the Welsh Government's LCM for the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill. Two and half years later, this report is our sixty-seventh report in this sixth Senedd on a legislative consent memorandum, and we stand by the comments we made in October 2021 that, through taking it forward in this way, the Minister is adopting, let's say, a suboptimal approach, in relying on the UK Government to legislate in a priority policy area for the Welsh Government.
Indeed, Minster, you've laid out this afternoon the pitfalls of this, because the UK Government, should it fall, or should they choose not to proceed with it, well, that would take away the opportunity to legislate in an area where you do want legislation. So, we do believe it would be possible and, indeed, much more preferable for the Welsh Government to bring forward legislation to the Senedd in parallel to a Bill for England passing through the UK Parliament, should the intention be for the legislative frameworks across England and Wales to be similarly constructed. That could be done in discussion, in negotiation, two Bills passing through the two parliaments in synchronisation. This approach would have many benefits.
First of all, democratically elected Members of the Senedd would be able to discharge their roles fully as legislators in Wales; stakeholders in Wales would be able to feed in their views to Senedd committee consultations, if there were any, meaning Members of the Senedd would be held accountable to those stakeholders; the Welsh Government would have to respond to Senedd committee recommendations, meaning they would be held accountable to the Senedd; and the Senedd would be able—and this is not an insignificant issue either—to pass bilingual legislation in this area. And on the subject of bilingual legislation, it was drawn to our attention that the current rules on the transportation of animals are implemented through devolved, bilingual legislation. So, this makes it less clear as to why the Welsh Government is now taking a path that will result in monolingual legislation.
Finally, Llywydd, previous animal welfare related Bills have fallen, as I mentioned, during their passage through the UK Parliament, because of parliamentary sessions ending. With a UK general election likely to be called some time this year, it's unclear again why we are taking a risk with this legislation, given that the Welsh Government has no control over the Bill's passage through the UK Parliament, or, indeed, the calling of that election. So, with those comments and observations, on behalf of our committee, thank you very much for your consideration.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The welfare of animals during transportation is, of course, a matter of utmost importance, and any measures to enhance their protection and well-being should, of course, be introduced in a careful and balanced way. Now, I do it find it regrettable that not more was done to co-design the proposals in the Bill with the sector, and the Minister highlighted this, but I feel it's odd, in my view, that it singles out exporting livestock for slaughter, including fattening for subsequent slaughter, but then again it won't apply to exports for other purposes, and the Minister listed breeding, competition, scientific purposes, et cetera. So, there's a clear inconsistency there, in my view.
And, of course, there was an alternative proposal that was put forward. The farming sector actually proposed the option of a live export assurance scheme, to ensure that our high standards of welfare continue across borders. That would have had the benefit of protecting livestock during transport for different purposes, including consignment for slaughter and further rearing. It would also have provided assurance for all aspects of the process, from the farm, or the collection centre, all the way through to the point of slaughter.
I share the Minister's frustration that this legislation replaces the earlier proposal of the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, because that was, of course, a much broader, a much more holistic piece of legislation, which included other provisions, such as legislating to strengthen powers to tackle dog attacks on livestock, which is a key concern of ours. It's regrettable that that opportunity is being missed in this legislation and that that has to be pursued by other means.
Whilst we have many concerns about the proposed Bill, Plaid Cymru, of course, remains steadfast in our stance against supporting legislative consent motions that infringe upon devolved powers here in Wales, and I couldn't have put it better than the Chair of the LJC committee that this is a suboptimal approach. We really need to keep powers in Wales and here in this Senedd, and not cede them to another Parliament. So, on that basis, Plaid Cymru will be voting against this LCM.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister for rural affairs.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank both Huw Irranca-Davies and Llyr Huws Gruffydd for their contributions to the debate. The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee raised concerns that I absolutely recognise. I do think that the Bill has progressed very rapidly—it can happen sometimes when Governments want it to be done quickly—and I do think and I hope it certainly will pass before a general election is called. In response to Llyr Huws Gruffydd, we have worked collaboratively with both the UK Government, the Scottish Government and with a wide range of stakeholders and we will continue to do that. So, despite the comments from the two Members, I do remain of the view that we should provide legislative consent for this Bill, and I therefore ask Senedd Members to support the LCM.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

14. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—A Bill for increased safety on public transport

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We move now to item 14, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Bill for increased safety on public transport. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM8460 Delyth Jewell
Supported by Jane Dodds, Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill for increased safety on public transport.
2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:
a) introduce systems for the regular monitoring, reporting and upgrading of lighting for all public transport services, including on board, at stops and stations, and on streets immediately surrounding train stations and major bus stops;
b) review training currently offered to those working in the transport industry on the topic of personal safety, both their own and that of others;
c) improve existing reporting procedures and develop more consistent and transparent systems for reporting and recording incidents of abuse that affect vulnerable persons on public transport; and
d) assess the need for a statutory duty on public transport companies to guarantee that passengers get to their destination, or a place of safety, after dark.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. This legislative proposal is fundamentally about safety, about making our train stations and bus stops safer, more accessible, and making it easier for people to get to and from those spaces. We all want public transport to be made more appealing, but, for lots of groups of people, the decision isn't always about convenience, but security. Will I be safe getting to the station? Will I feel safe when I've got there? What happens when I'm on the bus or train? What if something goes wrong? I'm proposing a Bill to help address these issues. A Bill that would introduce more integrated systems for monitoring and upgrading street lighting for public transport services, not just at major stops and stations, but on the streets immediately surrounding them. It would provide for reviewing the training offered to people working on public transport about personal safety, to protect themselves and their passengers. It would streamline the processes for reporting abuse, and would crucially assess the need for a statutory duty on public transport companies to guarantee that passengers should get to their destination or a place of safety after dark.
I should say at this juncture that this isn't only about street lighting; it's not only about making it easier for people who can see. There are lots of ways in which our society can make people vulnerable. After this proposal was first introduced, I was contacted by Guide Dogs Cymru and we talked about how this proposal could be improved to help people with partial or no sight. Audio announcements at stations and during journeys, accessible signs, tactile wayfinding, step-free access and help points at major stations. I support all those suggestions and I amended my proposal, I put it in for a Member's debate, and this proposal was selected first. Unfortunately, it means it's the original wording that's been put forward. So, can I put on record my thanks to Guide Dogs Cymru and my hope that, if this proposal is passed, those extra provisions could also be considered?
This Bill is about democratising our public spaces, making sure that those spaces that are meant for all of us aren't out of bounds for people because society makes them more vulnerable. And it is about society. There is nothing about being a woman or being disabled or being gay or having any other characteristic that intrinsically sets us apart as being vulnerable. It's the actions of others that make us more vulnerable. Or, in the case of disabled people, it's about the choices we make as a society about how our spaces are designed and how our services will be run. They assume that people will be able to get about physically. Similarly, when it comes to how poorly lit our towns and villages are after dark, those are decisions. There's nothing inevitable about it; it's a choice that we've made about what we prioritise.
The last provision that is covered in the proposal, I'm sure that will be the most challenging, but I'd urge the Government not to shy away from it because of that. I'm asking the Government to assess the need for a statutory duty or obligation on public transport companies to get their passengers home or to a place of safety after dark. This is something that we've discussed in the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. We're aware that the demands that will be placed on companies are inherent in such a duty. I would posit that, perhaps, as part of this assessment, the Government might conclude that it would be more feasible to have this duty for only the most vulnerable passengers. Yes, there will be questions about how that's defined, whether someone could pretend to have a vulnerability, but surely it's better to protect someone by mistake who isn't vulnerable than to abandon anyone who desperately needs it. This Bill is calling for an assessment of that idea. I hope that the Government will be willing to undertake it.
A constituent told me a few years ago that they had arrived at Cardiff Queen Street station after their Christmas party to catch the last train only to be told that the last train had left, as they'd changed the time. And although posters had been put up in Cardiff Central for weeks before advertising that change, none had been in Cardiff Queen Street nor in my constituent's home station. She was abandoned and the station staff refused to help her; they said it wasn't their problem. Her story didn't end in a nightmare. Others will. This Bill would seek to stop those nightmares happening.
When Transport for Wales gave evidence to the CCEI committee in November, I asked James Price whether they would look again at their processes for deciding which services to cancel or curtail. I asked if they followed different criteria in the winter months because of extra hours of darkness. They don't, but he did say that they would take away that challenge. TfW could see the problem. I think, surely, we all can. And this notion of a duty of getting passengers home or to a place of safety is an extension of that. Perhaps it could be included as a requirement in the bus franchising scheme. Perhaps it could form part of the TfW rail contract. I know it's a radical idea, but surely this problem demands radicalism, because, again, there's nothing intrinsic about certain groups that makes them more vulnerable; it's our society and the way it's designed that makes it so. Making this change would help to start to address that. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank Delyth Jewell for bringing forward this incredibly important Member's legislative proposal regarding increased safety on public transport. Without a doubt, the safety of the public using our transport services has been a great concern of mine and I know many of my colleagues in the Chamber, as well—one that I'm also contacted on on a regular basis too.
I note that points (a), (b) and (c) of your motion, Delyth, focus more on improving pre-existing services through upgrading lighting, improving training for staff and reviewing the current procedures in place for any issues that are reported. I wholeheartedly support these points. I'm sure, right across the Chamber, Members will agree that public transportation should be reliable, it should be efficient and it should, most importantly, be secure.
I also note that point (d) of your motion would look to assess the need for a statutory duty on public transport companies to guarantee that passengers get to their destination or place of safety after dark. Whilst I also support this point, I am aware that this will require a host of different travel companies, both big and small, to implement systems that will enable them to take responsibility for passengers' whereabouts when travelling with them. I'm all for radicalism, as you just said, but speaking on the points that I've just mentioned, it does have the potential to be quite difficult to implement in the wider scheme of things. In theory, I wholeheartedly support the idea, as do my colleagues. However, I would like to have some further details and explanation of the implementation and costings at this point, going forward.
Would you aim to implement statutory duties on public transport companies over passenger safety right up until they exit the facility of their final destinations, such a train station, or in this case, would the responsibility halt when the passenger disembarks the train itself? And how would you look to introduce new technology, for example, to track a passenger's whereabouts until they exit the facility? But, just to reiterate, the overarching aim of this MLP is to be welcomed. I am really happy to work with you on this, going forward, and I wish you all the very best with it. Thank you.

Sioned Williams AS: A number of groups of people could benefit from this proposal, as we heard from Delyth Jewell, but, as a woman, I can certainly attest to the need for this kind of Bill. International research shows that access for women and girls to safe public transport options is limited, due to the risk of being harassed and subjected to gender-based violence. The evidence shows that this happens in small and large towns, in urban and rural areas and in affluent and deprived areas. And, of course, protected characteristics that are intersectional in terms of sexuality, minority ethnicity, race and disability exacerbate this danger.
Public transport is the fourth most common public setting for incidents of sexual harassment. In Wales, 12 per cent of women say that they feel very unsafe using public transport, which is not the case among men. Twice as many women as men say that they don't use public transport because they fear for their safety.
Transport Focus asked over 1,200 women if they avoided certain ways of traveling because they feared for their safety, and 36 per cent said that they avoided using the bus. There is no doubt, therefore, that action is needed to prevent this from restricting women's rights to education, employment and services, as well as impairing their health and well-being. And the motion before us offers sensible and practical suggestions to begin this essential work.
The Equality and Social Justice Committee has recently undertaken an inquiry into preventing gender-based violence through public health approaches, highlighting what works to prevent gender-based violence before it happens.What was clear was that much more work is needed to plan and implement measures that would achieve that, but that there is also evidence showing that a holistic, society-wide approach to policies is one that offers real hope in terms of tackling the unacceptable and endemic levels of gender-based violence and harassment that plague our nation.
Implementing what Delyth Jewell is proposing for legislating in this area would be an important step forward in terms of this preventive work, not only for passengers but also for staff. Because recent research by the RMT has shown that 40 per cent of women who work on public transport have been sexually harassed—40 per cent—and more than 80 per cent say that this problem is increasing.
This proposal would also be a means of increasing the number of people who are making the necessary shift from the car to greener methods of travel. It would enable more women to make that choice by alleviating the completely understandable concern that they have about their safety on public transport at the moment. With train services often being canceled or delayed, as we heard in that example from Delyth, and buses sometimes not turning up due to a lack of drivers, putting passengers in worrying and critical situations at times, in terms of not being able to get home or to their destination before nightfall, it is difficult to make the case for not choosing the car instead of a bus or train if that option is available to you.
It is the duty of the Government to tackle the completely unacceptable levels of gender-based violence, and it is the duty of the Government to ensure that everyone has equal access to public transport. It is also the duty of the Government to enable Wales to mitigate climate change by cutting emissions. This Bill would help the Government to do these three crucial things. I am very pleased to have supported the motion, and I encourage Members across the Chamber to do so.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Deputy Minister for Climate Change to contribute. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to Delyth Jewellfor bringing this issue to the Senedd today.This is of critical importance and not something we discuss enough in this Chamber, but it's an issue that consistently comes up when we speak to disadvantaged groups, and women in particular. So, I think it is really important that we confront the situation head on.
I'm not convinced that legislation is the right way to deal with this, but deal with it we must. I'd very much like to work with Delyth Jewell, or perhaps I can commit my successor to do so, which is generous of me, to work through the practicalities of this to see what options we can identify. If that fails, then, of course, the case for legislation becomes stronger. And we have upcoming legislation for buses, at least, that could be a vehicle for that, if we are not able to make progress in the ways that I think are likely to be more effective. So, if she would take that offer in the spirit it's intended, I think there is important work that we can try and do together here on this. Because we need public transport to be the obvious choice for most people to make most journeys, but that will only happen if public transport is seen as welcoming, accessible, reliable and attractive.
Clearly, how safe a person is and, just as important, perhaps even more important, how safe a person feels is of critical importance. Just one bad experience, as we know, can put you off using public transport or indeed active travel for a long time, and maybe forever. And as Delyth said, this is about lots of groups of people, and there's nothing inherent about any vulnerable group that makes them vulnerable; it's the way society responds to them that is the issue. But there's undoubtedly a gendered element to this debate. I was reminded of the famous Margaret Atwood comment that men are afraid that women will laugh at them, but women are afraid that men will kill them, and I think that's a sobering thought for men in particular to understand, because that is often not something men instinctively do understand. And Sioned Williams, I think, quoted those very powerful figures that twice as many women as men say they don't use public transport because of the fear of their safety. So, this is critically important, and it's not something we talk about enough. So, I think let's do more of that, and let's sit down and work through the details to see what, practically, we can do.
There is a lot we do already, clearly, and the transformation we're doing of the core Valleys lines in particular will see a big improvement in infrastructure, lighting, CCTV, passenger help points, improved security presence on those services. We work closely with British Transport Police; in fact, we provide them with funding of £0.5 million a year to provide officers and PCSOs on the network, and we are working closely with them as part of the new control centre that's being built at Taff's Well to join up the services across the metro. And, of course, the new trains that we're rolling out also have enhanced CCTV. We're committed to having two members of staff on board trains, and our new bus system will also need to be designed with the needs of passengers in mind.
I think there's a lot we do. There's more we need to do, but there are—as has been mentioned in the debate—constraints, because most of the railway stations in Wales are not the responsibility of us; they're the responsibility of the UK Government. We have no say over the operation of services run by Great Western, Avanti, or CrossCountry in Wales, and, of course, policing is entirely reserved. So, there are, I think, limits to what could be achieved via legislation, but rather than focusing on what we can't do, let's focus on what we can do, and let's try and work together on a practical way forward to do that. At this stage, I'm not persuaded that legislation is the right answer. But the problem is the right one that's been identified, and I hope that we can make some progress on that.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed to this brief debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Natasha. Thank you very much for the support for a number of the points in the proposal. You've pointed out some of the challenges of implementing this provision. I agree there are challenges, and that's why I hope very much that there could be an assessment of how it might be undertaken. On your point about new technologies in helping to track, I think that's a really interesting point, and the details of how this could include more guarantees of bus replacements, maybe; there are lots of different ways in which it could work. But I do welcome your comments and your support for the principle of this. Thank you very much.

Delyth Jewell AC: Sioned reminded us of the fact that public transport is the fourth most likely place where violence will happen, and that's also a risk, as Sioned set out, in terms of how many people avoid using buses or trains, and the journeys that never happen because of that. As I say, there is a duty on Government, but there's also a duty on society, and that's one of the things that I'm trying to address through this proposal.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you very much, Minister, for your comments there. They are very welcome, and I would be very grateful to take you up on this offer of working together on this issue; I would certainly be keen to do that. Public transport does need to be accessible, it does need to be reliable and safe, and, as you pointed out, that crucial distinction—. No, it's not a distinction between being safe and feeling safe; they're two things that are intimately connected. That Margaret Atwood quotation that you quoted put it far more eloquently, I think, than I could. As Sioned had pointed out as well, when someone doesn't feel safe, there's all the opportunities that are cut off from that person because of one bad thing happening, or one bad thing almost happening sometimes, feeling like you might be being followed and the effect that that has on curtailing a person's life. If someone is living with a disability and they have been stopped because the bus stop has changed, and they hadn't been notified, and they can't get to the bus stop, just the effect it has on someone's confidence, and how welcomed and a part of society that they feel. I think that's what's so heartbreaking. But I do really welcome what you said, Minister, and I would be very grateful to work with the Government on this, and I really am very grateful for the cross-party support to the principles.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'll just conclude, Llywydd, by saying that, last night, a disabled woman was interviewed on S4C on Y Byd ar Bedwar, and she said that public transport in Wales's lack of accessibility makes her question her place in society as a disabled person. The purpose of this Bill would be to reaffirm her place, and the place of all people who are made vulnerable by our planning decisions and by our decisions about our public spaces—to reaffirm that she is not on the fringes of society, but in the middle of it, at its heart. And I very much hope that such a change can happen soon. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we'll move immediately to our first vote—

Jane Hutt AC: Can I raise a point of order, please? Or ring the bell—that's the best thing. We've got a problem with the—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes, if you have a problem, to ring the bell is the usual way around that problem. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will therefore ring the bell and take the vote in five minutes. Just checking—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: are there three people who agree with Jane Hutt?Yes, there are. Okay, we'll ring the bell.

The bell was rung to call Members to the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 19:01.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:07, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

15. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: [Inaudible.]—item 11, the legislative consent motion on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill, motion 1. I therefore call for a vote on the motion, motion 1, tabled in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, no abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 11. LCM on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill—motion 1: For: 34, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next vote is on the LCM on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill, motion 2. And I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 31 against. Therefore, motion 2 is not agreed.

Item 12. LCM on the Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill—motion 2: For: 14, Against: 31, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 13 is our next vote, the LCM on the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, no abstentions, nine against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 13. LCM on the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill: For: 36, Against: 9, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: So, our next vote is on item 14, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal—a bill for increased safety on public transport. And I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Delyth Jewell. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 32, 13 abstentions, none against. Therefore, that motion is agreed.

Item 14. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—A Bill for increased safety on public transport: For: 32, Against: 0, Abstain: 13
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That concludes our proceedings and our voting for this afternoon. Good evening.

The meeting ended at 19:10.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Samuel Kurtz: What plans does the Welsh Government have to stimulate Wales's rural economy?

Vaughan Gething: We have made significant investment available through the Rural Investment schemes, retained the £238m Basic Payment Scheme and announced £20m investment in nutrient management. Future plans will take into account the responses of the Sustainable Farming Scheme consultation to ensure that investment will stimulate sustainable rural economic growth.

Luke Fletcher: What support is the Welsh Government providing to community health organisations in South Wales West?

Vaughan Gething: There are many different organisations involved in meeting the health and care needs of people in our communities. We expect partnership and collaboration at national, regional and local level both to plan and deliver services, matched to population need.

Alun Davies: How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities and other agencies to address anti-social behaviour?

Vaughan Gething: While criminal justice matters including anti-social behaviour are reserved to the UK Government, we are committed to working with Local Authorities, Policing and other partners to reduce anti-social behaviour and promote community safety across Wales.

Jenny Rathbone: What is the Welsh Government's response to the latest Equality and Human Rights Commission report on implementing the Istanbul Convention?

Vaughan Gething: The Welsh Government shares the concerns of the Equality and Human Rights Commission regarding support for migrant victims of abuse. We have previously called on the UK Government to reverse Article 59 to ensure migrant victims and survivors are supported as the Istanbul Convention intended.